USGP at Daytona? 24 Hours of Indy?

Wouldn't allow any open-wheeled cars more powerful than a Formula-Vee or maybe Formula-Ford, to race on the Daytona track due to the speeds created by the steep banking. They thought anything faster would be deadly. That's my understanding.

I posted a notice last week, under general topics, about an opportunity for a couple of pace laps around the track on the day preceeding the 24 Hours of Daytona next February. A strong turnout might help open the door for a full-fledged track day in the future.

KevFla

 

While I'm no fan of the current GRAND-AM formula I would care to venture that their current "prototypes" are faster around the road coarse than a current NASCAR would be. That road course includes much of the banking.

And as far as fast cars at Daytona go here:

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/ferrari333-2.html All at Daytona getting ready for the 24hrs of Daytona.

As far as USGP at Daytona, no thank you. I'm not a big fan of the track. If I had my choice to put F1 any other place in the US it would be

1)Road America in Elkhart Lake, Wisconsin http://www.roadamerica.com/
2)Watkins Glen in up state New York http://dbserver.iscmotorsports.com/TheGlen/index.cfm

Both are just amazing tracks out in the country. Lots of elevation changes, good combinations of slow, medium and fast turns.

I had the opportunity to run (crew) Formula continentals in 93 and Formula Atlantics in 92 respectively at those tracks. We ran with the IMSA cars at RA and they were just phenomenal there. For the WG race we ran with both the IMSA series and NASCAR. That was a great weekend. Lots of different cars on the track and there was rain during the weekend which meant the "bog-men" were out in force. RA has the best track food anywhere on the planet. Great sausages and roasted corn cooked by vendors right in front of you on open grills. Good family atmosphere. If I had a family I'd bring them to either in a heartbeat. Both tracks have a long racing history and you can feel it when you get there.

Those would be my votes.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing the USGP at Sebring or having a street course made around say...Chicago? You have a waterfront, beautiful city skyline, and tons of roads (although some are bad enough to drive on at 60mph).

 

There is no way that the ISC (Read: France Family) will allow any point paying competive racing to have faster speeds than NASCAR on their tracks. The whole formula for GrandAM is so watered down because NASCAR was embarrassed time and again by the times set by IMSA GTO (GT-1) and GTU (GT-2) cars at tracks like Watkins Glen and Sears Point that NASCAR demanded (and got)the events to be run on different configurations.

There were years however when the IMSA GTP, GTO, GTU raced the same configured tracks and the best NASCAR times were good enough to be at the back of the GTO (GT-1) grids in most instances.

There had been talk about a CART event at Daytona and as has been stated in this thread, the ISC shot down the notion of an openwheeled race taking place on their prescious course, never to be heard from again. Of course, the ISC's heavy backing of the IRL put to rest any more of this discussion.

In the late 80s and early 90s, there was also talk of a 24 Hours of Indianapolis. This surfaced again when Andy Evans took over IMSA and changed the name to Professional Sports Car Racing in 1997. Evans had a knack for pissing off all the wrong people, most notably the ISC, when he announced he intended to begin a new stock car series to rival NASCAR.

The discussion about another 24 Hour sports car race (more or less to replace the 24 Hours of Daytona) came about. The problem became when to run it,
how it would be handled logistically (as the timing would have to fit in with Indy's schedule: testing, qualifying and running of the "500", NASCAR 400 and now F-1) and of course the weather in that part of the world dosent allow for year round running so the notion was scrapped as it was deemed an
impossibility.

The likelyhood of a club track event at Daytona has about as much of a chance happening as David Bobe and Bob Mack announcing their engagment and forthcoming nuptuals in Vermont. It simply wont happen (even though Mack likely already has a wedding gown, complete with featherd boa in his closet already).

Laguna Seca is in the sights of F-1 as a second American venue as one of Bernie's major investors is indeed a San Fransisco based bank, the officers of which are keen to see an F-1 race in thier back yard.

BHW

 

i've always thought a 24 hour at indy would be doable. a new f1 track in vegas would be nice. with all the desert available it seems they could find a nice venue. look at the job they did in bahrain with a desert site.

 

Barton,

I could take what you wrote and (in the words of my favorite Senator) spread it on my yard and watch the grass grow green. You are wrong or misleading on almost every single "fact" you wrote. You're telling us the real reasons why NASCAR and ISC have made certain decisions, but unless you're hanging out at 1801 with Brian and Jim and Mike, I just don't believe you know.

Your first paragraph is simply fiction; your biases for the ALMS have you spouting the fan-boy line against GrandAm. As an aside, one "truth" is that the 2005 Daytona 24 Hours has probably the greatest driver lineup of any road race in years, with Champions (not just drivers) from the ALMS, Champ Car, IRL, NASCAR, the FIA GT, TransAm, and GrandAm. (Paul Tracy against Tony Stewart? Sebastian Bourdais against Kurt Busch? I can't wait!)

CART never made serious approaches to Daytona about a race. The speeds possible on the track (with 31 degree banking) raises safety issues, particularly as the track is not as smooth as it would need to be. There has been a concern about open wheel cars at the Speedway ever since the death of Art Malone at the track. ISC has a business relationship with the IRL, which rents some of its tracks. CART also rented ISC tracks, but defaulted on payment and went into bankruptcy.

No one ever approached the Indianapolis Motor Speedway about a 24 hour sports car race on any serious basis. The policy of that track is to run very few events, and each must be the top (or very near the top) of its type. That's why you have only the 500, Brickyard 400 (now second to the Daytona 500 in prestige), and the U.S.G.P. I knew Andy Evans well enough to hear him come out with all sorts of ideas -- a 24 hour race to "destroy" Daytona was one of them -- but they were usualliy forgotten after a day or so.

There used to be club events at Daytona -- I've driven the long course with the banking in a 275 GTB, 365 GTC/4, and 206 SP in different years. The FCA events were very successful, but issues with another club (Corvette), including allowing a car on the track with inappropriate tires which caused an accident, ended that policy. It is entirely possible that in the future, after all the remodeling is done, the right club will make the right approach to the track, and be willing to pay what it will cost. These tracks don't simply sit empty all year; a race track makes money by generating income every day. At Daytona the Richard Petty Driving School has had the track rented on most free weekends, when clubs would like to have the track.

I won't even begin to go into all the reasons why Laguna Seca won't host an F1 race, but noise, access, and facilities are three. Laguna Seca is a California state park, and the issues associated with that are probably reasons four, five and six.

I hate to start the day with a rant like this, but someone posted in another thread that FerrariChat was the best Ferrari magazine. Descriptions of racing history which are so biased need to be corrected before anyone believes that what you wrote is factual.

Old Guy

 

ROTFLMAO! Well, Andy DID have a talent for 'unusual' position statements!

USGP = Paying Bernie

Indy = Paying Tony

Whoever can make the numbers work underneath those two statements can have the race in a local parking lot!

In Kansas or somewhere........or down by Angleton, TX.

Merry Christmas OG, thanks for all the facts!!!! And memories..........

 

And Merry Christmas to you too, Bubba. You know you're exactly right about Bernie and FOM. Personally I think the GPWC is real, but what do I know?

The fun part about Andy was that on any day you never knew which Andy might show up....

 

Oh yea, I think Luca means business, you can tell from his 'look'.....

He wears his shirt collars like Agnelli always did.......

Bernie's gonna have to balance the situation some or they'll toast him......never cross a Investment Banker!

 

Well, if you want to go see these top drivers circulate around Daytona in those ugly s-boxes, by all means be my guest. As happened last year, in order to get one of them to finish, the race will have to be halted for five hours a few spits or rain on the track. If it dosent rain, we'll see what sort of clever excuse they come up with to get these stupid cars to the finish line. If thats racing, I'll eat it. I dont care who's driving.

Personally, I have trouble giving a watered down "sports car" series any credibility when Roger Edmundson gets up and states, "We do not care about traditional sport car fans". So far, at their marquis event, these non-traditional sports car fans have stayed away in droves, playing to 180,000 empty seats. Its a shame what has happened there as when the 24 Hours of Daytona was a legitimate race, it consistently drew 100,000 fans.

The real sports car racing season wont happen until the third weekend of March with the ALMS season begins at Sebring.

When I say there was "mention" of a 24 Hours of Indianapolis, that is exactly what I meant. Logistically, there was no way it would fit with the schedule of Indy or any other legitmate sports car series for that matter and the notion was dropped. Having been on board with Evans' group myself, I know of what I speak.

CART was indeed in discussion with DIS. This happened around the time I was in college there and a closed test took place. The cars were kept off of the banking and stayed on the infield portions but that situation was not viable and the deal was dropped.

Certainly, there is no question that ISC/NASCAR do not take kindly to having any cars faster than those 4000lb death traps on their tracks. The records are there for all to see when they allowed IMSA GTP, GTO, GTU to compete on the same configurations as NASCAR.

The ISC will stop at nothing to further their cause and attempt to run any other competing series off the map. We witnessed that here when the ISC
filed suit (unsuccessfully) to have the Miami Grand Prix of the Americas halted
in 2002 and 2003.

Talk about doing a club event at Daytona has gone on for too long now. You'll be in good company with those DIS pricks.

BHW

 

Barton,

I respect your knowledge of racing, but sometimes your ALMS bias shows through. I am a fan of all racing (heck I watch NASCAR Craftman Truck Series) and have been since I was a small boy watching race cars at the 'Ring.

I am not sure where the "watered" down sports cars comment keeps coming from. Of the three classes that run in GA two of them are very similar to ALMS (GT and GTS). Possibly your comment stems from the use of production engines in the GA Prototypes (GAP's). What's wrong with trying to keep the costs down so other's can play and we can watch large fields of cars, something ALMS doesn't have.

I am a fan of both series and watch both, but the tides have changed. Two years ago Grand Am looked dead and ALMS was king. Now the tables have turned in regards to the top class in each series.

The LMP, which is of course is the feature class in ALMS, is a complete joke and has been for the past few years. This year you had one Audi at most races and one or two of Dyson's little four bangers. Hell they should have just given Champion the trophy at the start of the season so we could have watched the great GT racing on TV instead of JJ and Weaver battling it out for who finished first in class and who finished last in class.

The level of driving depth in LMP is so sparse that I can actually tell my kids that I raced with and against the second place finisher in LMP class. That's right...the depth is soo low that someone like me, who races $20,000 sh*t boxes from Japan (or Pinto powered Spec Racers) can say hey I raced with Chris Dyson. And that same Chris Dyson held up the title winner (JJ) for half a race in his underpowered turbo charged four banger agains the mighty R8.

Sorry but you can harp all you want about the "watered down" race cars of GA, but I can sit here and harp all day about the "watered down" racing in ALMS in all three classes (maybe GT excluded). There is no racing in LMP nor in GTS.

ALMS has become a great marketing tool for manufacturers to claim they have beaten the best, when in fact they have beaten no one on their way to a title. I already mention LMP class, but look at GTS class where the Vipers and Corvette's have racked up some pretty awesome looking consecutive racing streaks. Didn't the Vipers (OReca) win something like 16 straight races, and then the Corvette's did something similar.

But against who. The Vipers faced no one in the title years save one lone Corvette or two. Hell they even won Daytona one year when all the LMP cars took each other out of broke. As soon as Corvette showed any promise the Vipers tucked their tails between their legs and ran. Who have the Corvette's faced. A partial season by the 550's but in 2004 they faced one lone Slaeen and those piece of crap Lambos, which were slow.

And of course, god forbid any actual racing takes place, like in GT class with the BMW's and the Porsche's and the losing group goes and cries to the FIA/ACIO and puff...............the BMW's are gone. Now it's a Porsche Supercup race in the US in GT class.

And let's look at mighty Lemans. The personal marketing phiefdom of Mr. Piechstrider and the VW/Lambo/Bentley/Audi goup. All I hear about is the great R8's and the might of Audi. They talk of these cars and teams in the same breath as the great 956's and 962', the Jaguars Sikcut cars, the Nissans.

Give me a break, who has Audi beat. Courage, Dome, Pescarollo, the ugly duckling slow as crap Panoz LMP car or how about those ultra succesfull LMP efforst by Caddy and Chrysler. Mighty teams and cars indeed. Audi spends more on their food catering at LeMans than those teams spend on their entire race effort. Where was Audi when Toyota and Mercedes where spending millions on their LeMans efforts. Where was Audi when Porsche, Nissan, Jaguar, and Mazda were vying for the crown. Nowhere to be seen.

VW saw the factory teams back out and took the opportunity to rack up a bunch of hollow wins at LeMans and in ALMS.

Imagine how many wins Jacky Ickx would have won at Lemans faced with no competition from other factory teams.

The Bentley win was a complete joke and should be a embarassment to real race fans. I fully expected there to be a rebadged VW effort this year so they can sell more VW Polo's to the average European who takes pride in knowing the 10K econo box he is truddling around in comes from the mighty VW/Audi group that beat teams who spent 1/10th on their LMP efforts.

You talk about the shame of Daytona being ruined but the same has happened at LeMans.

As for your claims about the stoppage at Daytona last year, I have heard all that and then some, but no one has proven that is why the race was stopped. Where you there? I was and the amount of rain on the bamking was very dangerous. I was in the pits with a SGS team and the drivers were very worried. The team next to us had some recognizable professional racers you'd know. They also commented on the race needing to be stopped. I was also there in 91 (92?) when the last race was stopped. Same conditions.

I heard all the conspiracy stories you mention. Some said it was because the Citgo team was down to its last two sets of Good Year rain tires and the other GAP's had plenty of Dunlops left. The story was that France wanted a NASCAR driven team to win. There were also stories about the leading GTS class Porsche moving up from 6th overall to 3rd and getting dangerously close to challenging for the lead which would be the second year in a row that a GTS car beat the GAP's.

All nice stories but none have been proven true.

I'd rather watch watered down race cars than watered down racing. If I want to watch watered down racing I can watch the Ferrari Challenge series.

This is not a personal rant against you, but against ALMS. The costs are too high and you are left with two classes of competitors, those who have too much money and no talent, and those that have too much money and a LOT of talent. Doesn't make for exciting racing when the outcome is already chosen. Let's see ...we know Audi will win in LMP, Corvette in GTS, and one of a dozen Porsche's will win.

I am a fan of all racing, and really miss the days of Group C and IMSA, but the reality is the costs killed the sport and that is what is happening in ALMS.

I watch both but ALMS better do some things differntely or it's doomed.

Just a fans perspective!

Regards,

Jon P. Kofod (who thinks it's laughable that the R8 is metioned in the same breath as the 956/962)

 

What a nice way of expressing yourself. As it happens, I had lunch today with an employee of DIS, and I passed on your greetings.

The rest of what you wrote? The fact that you hate GrandAm, ISC, Daytona, and the Frances is fine with me, but your opinion is not the only one out there. The rest of it is still almost all factually incorrect. That you read something on the Internet or heard other GrandAm haters repeat this trash doesn't make it so. I think I am much closer to this that you, and I know better. Lots of others here do too.

I like the ALMS, but Jon is right in almost every point. For how many years now have the Sebring/PLM/any other race winners been the same Audis, Corvettes, and Alex Job Porsches. This is neither good racing nor cutting edge technology. I've already heard that 2005 is another down year for the ALMS, but that 2006 will be better. I really hope so.

Enjoy being bitter. Jon and I will enjoy racing instead.

O.G.

 

I'll second a race in Chitown, quite a site along Lake Michigan or along the Chicago River. Monoco with Al Bundy & Old Style beer!!!

Ditto Watkins Glen too, its the original IMO. While Tony George isn't my favorite I like the IRL heading back to a track of this historical significance.

 

I've always said, 'Bring the racing to the people', and if one of those people happens to be me, then all the better! It's been my dream for decades to have a street race along the lakefront. Might require some tricky suspension setups.