V-12 Engine into 308 Build, over on Grassroots

Yeah, I'll have to pull it from the PC later tonight. I wonder though if the difference is due to 12cyl vs 8 and the per cyl volume. Pulse volume has to be a factor. Let's say they are both they same volume in total, but you have 6 pulses and this one has 4, though there is the time interval...hmmm have to think on that.

The QV engines have an odd dip, always wondered why. As you note it can be somewhat mitigated by sacrificing top end, but it's still there. Nick's build was for top end, crazy rpm and power.. Bottom end was not a factor.

 

Yeah looking into ECU's.. not recalling off the top of my head but there's an ECU in Europe that will do sequential 12... Waiting on verification though.

Thank God I'm not handling the trans or anything else. Shop was just sharing the particulars of the project. All they want is the EFI side.

 

I don't think its that...DM doesn't consider that in the calcs, it assumes the cylinders don't interact in a meaningful way so it 1 or 12 cylinders in the collector, it just cares what size the collector is.

I struggled with that choice as all the numbers no matter how it was tuned were WAY plenty big to be scary to drive....and that is what finally got me, keeping the curve smooth makes it a bit less scary as its less likely to do things you don't expect. Years ago I raced a ZX6 motorcycle and from the factory it had a dip at like 9500 (14k redline) so if you mis a down shift and end up below 9500 you start rolling in the throttle but as revs climb the power is dropping so you add more throttle...then the power start going up quick and the back wheel starts spinning, the bike is sliding but if you close the throttle you risk a highside crash...yeah that taught me about the beauty of smooth power curves pretty quick

 

Pecel/cosworth perhaps. I'm told they are good. $5-10k iirc

The M150 or EL129 will do 12cyl sequential, the M150 direct spark, 129 waste spark, but will run the stock distributor(s) which is probably how I'd go as it would look more original. The real different is the motec is like $6-15k depending on options, the 129 is $1800 and comes with most of what motec sells as an option. I hbough a M150 then realized by the time I bought the extras to make it do what I wanted I could literally drop it in the trash, buy an EL129 and be several grand ahead.....ebay it went. I LOVE the enginelab stuff.

 

Mk e what coils are you using on your V12? Are they “smart@ with their own built in dwell? Or “dumb” and need a dwell signal from the ecu?

 

Ahhh I use a couple other sim programs besides dynomation. DM is good for quick envelop. I also run thru 4st head and engmod4t. There's also another I'm not recalling off the top of my head that does exhaust design.

Cosworth sounds right. I also have to contend with the shop wants to do to the tuning etc.. I just provide components they handle the rest. So it'll have to be very close to plug and play.

Nick's engine was truly a case of how crazy, BIG power and for show.

 

dumb....GM D585 copies
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Thanks. I was concerned that to run wasted spark you needed a "smart" coil. I bought a Link Thunder to run my V12 car (when I get around to it). It only has 8 injector/ignition outputs so I'll have to batch, but it does have dual throttle by wire outputs.

 

Pipemax I assume.

Last we spoke you weren't loving engmod4t...has that changed?

My headers were designed originally by burns not me.....it took me like a year to figure out how to plug them into DM5 correctly, DM6 added tri-y so its easier there. At first I was modeling them wrong and sure they were awful which confused me as burns has a great rep....yeah, it was me. They did say 6-1 collector aren't very good and rarely if ever recommend them...just too big at the opening to work well.

 

it sounds like you should sell that and buy an enginelab

 

SMG2 I totally second Mk e on the weber shaped throttle bodies. I've seen them on a 330 over at Bob Norwood's house before. Very clean install. With the stock airbox in place you really couldn't tell.

Aaron

 

I don't feel like learning another tuning software, haha. Batch fire is no big deal, neither is wasted spark. Heck my 1000hp MR2 still runs a single coil and a distributor!

My turbo 348 has a Motec M84, it's an antique (that they still sell). It's going on Ebay soon and I'm moving over to another Link ecu (they have a 8 cylinder sequential box loaded with options for $1200 or so). Luckily same connectors so I just have to repin it.

 

That's it.. Pipemax.
And no not really.....
Engmod4t is a pita to use, serious input data... But it does work.. Just very time consuming. Very.. DM6 is quick and very close. I use DM for the initial go thru, testing, design change etc... After that I'll do the laborious task of 4t to work out the final details. 4st head is great for the cam and valve design. Time consuming though.

 

I lean heavily that way...

 

now go have a look at enginelab.net.....it is the ultimate geek ecu. You literally set it up to do anything you please. I'm in the shop right now teaching it to run my stock oil pressure gauge. Then I'll teach it to limit load/rpm at low oil pressure.

 

The toyota coils have a feedback signal to see if it's misfiring or not. Assume the MR2 uses that as well.

Link thunder is my current go to ECU...

 

Will do, I'm sure I can learn a new setup... But how used friendly is it for most shops? This particular project the shop is doing all the tuning, not me.

 

enginelab makes the infinity series AEM stuff. AEM writes the "model" and locks it from user view. With enginelab you write the model (or take mine) and edit it as you please, you only need to include the stuff that particular application needs, then you lock it so it can't be edited. The tuning software is the same AEM users see, just with mean options to see what's in the model and with the password you set edit it. All the screen shots I've shared are tuning screens I created, right click, add gauge or plot or whatever. Its pretty easy once the model is created....which requires geek skills but at the system level, not coding level so imo perfect for engineer types. When I found this I was like "why am I screwing around with the opensource project, it will never be this good" and still feel that way. Take a look then ping me and I'll send you my stuff so you see how it goes and what can be done.

 

Thanks... Let me take a look. If I take on the project it'll be unique in that I won't have the engine in front of me. The control sounds very intriguing...
Will say though, the link ECU has crazy amounts of control and custom input. Feedback self learn, etc..

 

prepare to have your mind blown........you can literally set it up to do whatever you want. Think PLC with a high level language.....so the flip side it it does nothing you didn't tell it to do.

 

Tonight I realized 2 things can be true at the same time, the had low oil pressure and the sensor was dead. but now the dash gauge it displaying EXACTLY what the ECU tells it to...first time its ever been right I'm pretty sure. I just made a simple little calibration table with the pressure for each gauge line and the corresponding signal to make it happen. now I can connect any pressure sensor to the ECU and the gauge will always read right.

Does a link ECU have a ferrari 308 oil pressure gauge function? I think not!

Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Heard back from my contact. and he pointed me to this thread. He says it fixes the big cam issues with CIS, again, no affiliation, no first hand knowledge.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/820323-digital-wur-plus-frankencis.html

 

Link has a plethora of gpo's all programmable to whatever you want, same goes for input sensors, just have to know either the equation, map or curve that it uses.

I haven't tried to send a signal to the gauge but it shouldn't be an issue that I'm aware of.

On the supercharged builds I have the intercooler water pump on a GPO that is set to run based on if/than or arguments... Checks rpm, engine temp, intercooler post and pre temps.

 

That is very cool though mark! Sorry forgot to add that...

 

Here's one... The spedo signal. Current factory sensor is not a direct output, the stupid sensor apparently alters the signal to the gauge. Since that sensor is crazy expensive and prone to failures. I had the thought of just subbing in a ZF hall sensor that feeds into the ECU, that then outputs to the gauge... Now if I only knew what the alteration is...
Then they ECU could know what the vehicle speed is and also send the signal out reliably.

So there you go... One more thing to do...I liked to think I help just leaving chaos where I go ;O