V-12 Engine into 308 Build, over on Grassroots

Hmm that's a very good question. I've not experienced Evans consuming aviation sealant like that. I suppose it could given time... But to be gone..huh!?
Normally I have to use solvent and elbow grease to clean it up.

Wonder of you have fuel saturation in your coolant...

Since you've got it apart you could also check the head stud lengths against each other and see if the end ones by #6 are longer.

I think I mentioned somewhere in the thread that the tq I use is to get the heads to halfway and leave the engine to sit over night, if time does not permit at least 4hrs min before final tq sequence. We also keep the engine build room temp controlled to 68*.

 

You could try mixing some of that aircraft sealant with you Evans coolant and see if it dissolves. My reasoning with my low torque, wait 24 hrs then torque to spec is that the RTV would be pressed a little to spread evenly, cure, and then compress elastically once torqued.

 

I did spring yard work last weekend and got nothing done on the car....so of course the head gaskets arrived yesterday right on schedule and I'm not ready. I haven't even ordered the rest of the gaskets but I guess it will be a week or so to assemble and leak test so probably not going to cause a real delay. I'm leaning toward trying the copper spray stuff this time around....I'm pretty sure its just spray paint but it is sold specifically for this application.

 

I have unfortunately not had any good results with the copper spray and Evans coolant.

Oh and when you finally get her running and broken in. I highly recommend liqui moly mos2 oil, the additives are ok but I'm talking about the mineral based oil ready to go. Rock Auto has the best pricing at $7.50/L

 

The Evans coolant is NOT going back in. I like not worrying about corrosion but at this point I'll gladly take the corrosion concerns to get a sealed system. Its also not seeming to maintain temp sitting at idle which could be lots of things but water is about the best and is way easier than upgrading my already upgrade radiator and such so I'll be stepping away from the Evans.

I really haven't given much thought to oil after break-in yet. The break-in oil is mineral based but I wasn't planning to stay with mineral based stuff after break-in as the synthetics are generally more stable and lubricate better.....so why mineral?

 

Mark, the copper paint doesn’t have the flow of non-hardening sealant or the elasticity of RTV silicone. I really want this finished before I die (no immediate plans on doing so but it’s starting to feel like a French movie when you realize there isn’t going to be a happy ending.) If it was me, I’d use silicone and not torque the end nuts that may be causing distortion until after it’s cured. Switching to water-based coolant is also good as corrosion is not going to be an issue for us in 20 years, finding suitable fuel is!

 

I'm not sure either....I was thinking really get it thick on the flame rings, slap it together wet so there is some hope of flow and light torque then wait and retorque. Or I could retry the aviation sealant with the same light torque and wait process. ...or 518...or RTV.... or 85420 urethane stuff.....I just don't know what property I need most and what will survive the fuel and combustion and clamping pressure. It all feels like a roll of the dice honestly.

 

Have you checked the head stud lengths? With all the on/off testing it's something I'd look at to rule out any yielding on studs that may have hit their cycles.

Coatings, I've personally never had any luck with the copper spray on engines that refused to seal, had to step up to the aviation sealant to win.

The fact that you've got missing sealant after the last run is strange given the chemical makeup of the stuff. Fuel has to be getting into places it shouldn't.

If the only reason you were using Evans is for corrosion... Yeah ditch it. It's such a colossal PITA to use. The only reason and only application we use it in is for Siamese liners on the 89mm bores as water just won't work there. It's tolerable only because I then have a flat deck... But it's still fight. Slippery raisin juice gets everywhere!

I've tried 518 btw.. no go.

In the end on a 328 running 20psi, stock liners, high comp. I had to resort to MLS gaskets and aviation sealant. Also went with this tq sequence:
Half tq ---> rest for 24hrs
Final tq ---> heat block with infrared for till 180-200*F
Recheck tq looking for loose nuts, if found, back off and re-tq. Only had that happen once and during subsequent teardown the noted studs were found to be stretched. Replaced the offenders.

It's amazing just how much a PITA the Ferrari engines are with assy. No other marquee has ever given me such grief. American iron you can rub dirt in it and it'll still run, German stuff is pickier sure, but follow the instructions/rules and it'll go forever without trouble. Italian? Pfft... Now I know why they make wine and go fishing.

Honestly it's the material composition of the castings I think. 'squishy'. Just thinking out loud here... When you did all weld modifications did you run into issues with getting the new sections to properly flow into the castings. Then I wonder do you think there's a density miss match between them that's contributing to the clamp load issue? Grain structure alignment etc... I know getting out in the weeds, just old thoughts from the aerospace days...

Our welding guy for heads and blocks would weld 'hot', part was heated in oven to ~400 then he'd weld, then it went back in the oven to slow cool. That was too mitigate the stress and distortion that occurs when welding cold. I know that's not practical for most, but I wonder if you're fighting that problem. Hmmm wonder if you could thermal cycle to head and block to say 400* then let slow cool to relive any stress that's potentially creating tq issues... Going to need a BIGGER oven..

Oil. MoS2 is the go to for solid lifter and old school engines. Synthetics have changed so much now to meet EPA mpg requirements that they no longer protect the older mechanical designs like they used to. Oils have also cut out the additives for gasoline and some diesels as well to protect the catalytic converters. MoS2 fills that gap. The additive though doesn't hold in suspension well in full synthetic... At least that's the debate. I've got a couple classic Mercedes that starting having lifter issues and cam scoring. Switch over to the molly oil and away went the problem. Granted these aren't DD's so annual oil changes come before the milage limit, oils still cheaper then rebuilding! Just my 2 cents on it.

 

The welding was done pretty hot just because there really is no other there is no other way to get enough heat into the weld....I burned up a torch rated to 350A . If I were doing it over I'd probably use a heat treatable rod and re-heat treat everything but it is what it is.

I'm pretty sure the missing aviation sealant is me going straight to full torque....remember it dripping into the cylinders after assembly.

518 and RTV I just don't think can handle the clamping forces on the flame rings and need a little bit of film thickness to work right. My concern with hylomer or 85420 is they stay so nonhardening I worry they will just squish out wait to full torque or not. That leaves me aviation or copper spray and both come with about an equal number of yes & no votes but all from experience with setups that aren't really quite what I have and there is a possibility that what I have is simply unworkable

 

I went to the parts store to grab a battery for the mower and the copper spray the website said they had, but when I couldn't find it and asked the counter guy told me he sent it to a shop earlier this morning....we'll call that a sign from Enzo (god of hp) and go with the aviation stuff again I guess.

 

When I use the aviation sealant I let it tack up before assembly. Thin film on block, thin film on gasket and then it sits for a few, something like 10min for it to get tacky.

 

Yeah.....there is little doubt in my mind that paint/assemble/torque is why none ended up where it belonged on my last go. I also didn't realize you were painting both the engine and gasket

 

I pulled the other head yesterday and this time took pic before touching anything. Piston 7 is clean and 12 pretty clean kind of as expected but I THINK that is oil on 7, 8, 11, 12 but not 9, 10...that is a tad confusing. Tonight the plan is to clean everything up and maybe have a long look possible oil paths....for sure it was smoking but I had myself completely convinced that was a mix of way too much fuel and some coolant but there probably shouldn't be oil on the pistons. Also there is what looks like fluid from the stud holes to the cylinders....could simply be oil poured down the stud holes as I pulled the head off but I think a good long look is in order. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

It looks like I never hit post yesterday's update until right now, oops.

Today I decided to pour alcohol in the cam galley and see if it stays there....that is the only idea I've had to leak check the welds separating the intake ports from the cam oil.

No leaks, at least not that alcohol soaks through after 30 minutes of waiting. I think I just had oil in the head and it poured down the stud holes and into the cylinder when I pulled the head. There is oil all over the foam I set it on yesterday which I think is further evidence so tomorrow I 'll clean up the other head and put them back on.
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That is Evans...I know that crime scene
It leaves a sooty burn and oily residue. And with your short run cycle even a rich burn wouldn't leave that much of a sooty mark.

 

Really? I know for sure the clean pistons are leakers, they has wet plugs. On the previous assembly I was able to get the other plugs near white but at the cost of the known leaking cylinders shutting down so this go I was back to pig rich. Either way this go there will be on Evans to worry about so its a non-issue

Lots of rain so no yard work...out to clean up the other head and paint on some sealant. The plan is paint block, gaskets, heads and wait...you said 10 minutes so I guess I'll try a touch test at that point and maybe wait some more depending. Then 30 ft-lbs today, 55 tomorrow, 70 the following day. Wait.....(maybe an air leak test) heat to 180-200 let it cool and re torque to 70.

Oh, still didn't make the shins...I need to do that and get a custom washer under the coolant temp sensor so it points the right way and isn't relying on rtv.

 

If you look at the piston top you'll notice a clean strip thru the center, that's fuel wash. Clean burn fuel and even rich leaves a tan/brown piston top. Evans leaves the black sooty mess that gets fuel washed. If the leak is severe enough then the plugs get wet. Evans will burn in small amounts and not leave wet plugs. The marks left on the piston also have this pattern to them, like fractals or swirls thru the edges.

Ditching the Evans is a good start. If you've got clearance between liners then I don't see the need for the hassle. It's really good for engines with hot spots that have poor flow where water will superheat. Otherwise... Water/surfactant and corrosion additives are just fine.

 

The flame front and kernel formation are slower with glycol so it leaves that "foamy" witness in the soot that you'll see on the piston.

 

That sounds a lot more complicated than my answer that the liquid fuel drips in at the valves and makes a mess on the pistons
...doesn't matter though. leaking is leaking.

I got the heads back on Saturday and torqued to 25ft-lb. I kind of wanted to retorque to 50 Sunday but just didn't have the balls to set foot in the shop on mother's day so the retorque to 50 happened tonight. I'll go to 70 tomorrow, then heat it up and retorque Wednesday maybe.
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the shims came out pretty good I thought
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Normally I try to put the head nuts on, drop them, pull out with a magnet, repeat several times until luck is with me and the threads start before drop it. This time I realized the magnet does a fine job positioning the nut, cut the time at least in 1/2....acorn nuts are smooth on top and spin fine on the end of a magnet....DOH!
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Brought it to 70ft-lbs last night. The plan today is pick up a heater and heat it up then toque 1 more time....and leak test.

 

Image Unavailable, Please Login Didn't remember I had this heater. Box out of wood left from the basement door project...now wait...it already hot in the shop but I'm not leaving this unattended

 

Improved ....at least from an even heat perspective
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More improved...ovens need doors I guess. The 1 side was pretty near 200F even all down the head, may by 190 on the block. I moved the heater one last time and got the other sides head and block 195-205 and that's the front so it gets hotter in real life so I'm calling it cooked. It took about 90 minutes, maybe a little more

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I tore the box part and retorqued....not sure it had the same effect as a real heat cycle but the pressure caps are on so now waiting for the sealant to dry enough to hold pressure, maybe tonight. This thing just looks huge sitting on the floor

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I do not see the fire extinguisher....