V-12 Engine into 308 Build, over on Grassroots

I love all this

 

How's that quote go?

Do unto engines as you see others do undo bodywork?

Something like that?

Off to measure and think about gears. The easy answer is mount them all backwards which must be what I was thinking originally. I'm pretty sure doing that reverses their rotation which is fine mechanically but causes of gear whine I honestly don't know much about so it makes me wonder. so that is option 1. option 2 is modify the trans gear, there is a counterbore I don't need that adds length and is no doubt why I flipped it, so I could just remove it but that will likely mess with the ring nut location or require a washer maybe. Option 3 is install as is and reset the weight of the idler gear and possibly need to add a little metal to the top of the new lower gear boss and then hope there is space in the cover. I need to have a good look at it.....

 

Your particular version of automotive insanity is more, and more interesting, than mine. Thanks so much for sharing.

 

I figured out what's going on and got it sorted. It looks like way back when I decided to swap the gears I looked at them and and thought it easy because I was holding the trans gear backwards and though saw it sat in the right spot....then realized it was backwards, it looks like after I'd already made the new clutch shaft and I just chopped a little off to get it as close as possible and called it good. The little could be a random number but I cut it to the thickness of the clutch gear Image Unavailable, Please Login

So I cut the new one the same but that means everything sits out a little further than I was thinking it would making my new boss too short....so I welded it up.
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On to the mill to cut the bearing seat and clean it up a bit.
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A little more clean up on the bench
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and it looks like the gears will work
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I'll do the shaft next, then the cover will need a little work because everything is taller than I thought and there's no room for the nut, but that's an easy fit.

 

Oh. This must be some strange, new meaning to the word "easy" that I've previously been unfamiliar with...

 

I guess it's a relative term....as in compared to all the other issues i have, popping a hole in the cover and welding a cap over is easy. When I was looking at the gears and realizing I had planned to mount the lower gear backwards I was thinking I'd need to move the bearing boss out which would be a horrible job. After a bit more thought I decided I could reverse what I was planning for the nut and bearing so the bearing location is unchanged and I only need to make clearance for the nut. Once I get it out of my head and into a solid model what I'm saying will be more obvious and this last clearance step is maybe a 1 hour job with 0 critical dimensions to worry about and almost no way for it to go wrong, so easy

 

Spoken like a true insane genius. Next, you're going to tell me that changing the water pump is easy

 

Tonight I measured where the shaft is exactly from my new bearing to reference the lengths.
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Then mostly rapped up the shaft design. Green are the new bearings,
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the large is the one I installed in the case, the slightly smaller will be secured to the shaft along with the gear by a ring nut on the end. That assembly will slip into the larger bearing and engage the transmission shaft, then the cover will slip over the smaller outer bearing using the bearing bore already in the cover as the cover.

 

The waterpump is pretty easy to replace. I used an aftermarket pump and reworked it, but the pump itself is a cartridge that just drops in. Making the pump housing was not so easy.
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I thought you based this on a 400 block? My 400i water pump was driven internally from a chain - madness.

 

Yes, a 400i but I converted to dry sump and put the return section or a F360 oil pump where water pump was originally..it just barely fit. Then the waterpump sits kind of over the timing chain adjuster. A lot of changes.
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Hahaha! Of course you did! Simple! Easy! Did you ever consider an electric water pump? I put one in my rally car and it's fantastic.

 

Well then he'd have to update the alternator and electrics... seen the little alternator.

( Mark)

To be fair, given the shoe horning he pulled off... Where in the world would it sit? Only place I can think of is where I put the high flow pump for an intercooler build on a 328.. front driver's side low air intake, relocating the ducting a bit. Tight fit but worked. Kept the wiring easy as well.

 

I remember looking at electric pumps way back and not liking the flow rates and electric power I didn't have. 800hp needs a LOT of water and the flow on the mechanical pump I bought was equal to 4 electric pumps iirc. I'm sure they've come a long way since then but the mechanical pump sure moves a lot of water.

 

I used the EMP W29/32 pump. 25A but honestly it would pull closer to 30A. Beast of a pump, can be controlled via PWM if one wants to add curves to the rate. We just used it for the intercooler, probably overkill but the cooler lines were 1.25" dia I.D. to keep head pressure low.

 

Last intercooler I used something similar...20A marine pump iirc with 1" lines I think it was and it worked very well for that application. My point was though that a high hp engine needs a lot of water flow or the coolant will have a large temp rise inside the engine which can cause all kinds of issues that I just didn't want to think about. The pump I used flows something like 150gpm max, it will be lower with the 1.5" 308 tubes/hoses and wasting a little hp but I figured better to be safe. The big selling point though was the pump itself is a cartridge so when it fails I don't need to remake my custom setup, just drop in a new one.

I made a drawing last night so I think I'm about ready to start cutting on the shaft. The discount place I ordered the reamer and broach from send a tracking number tuesday...but still haven't actually shipped anything

 

It begins. The 40mm OD is set and fits the bearing, ID drilled...well, on the important ID where the splines go I drilled then took a light cut with a boring tool to be certain its true to the OD but I let about 0.015" to ream to finish size as this is a critical feature and that also let me put a radius at the bottom to help with fatigue. The reamer and broach have finally shipped but tracking says Monday so the plan is try to finish up the lathe work and get the outer splines cut this weekend to be ready to broach Monday night maybe.

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Last engine install I was looking 12 into flange nuts to make exhaust install easier but they were like $12 each on mcmaster so i passed.....turns out ebay has them for under $1.25 each so 24 are on the way.

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Change of subject and a little geek speak (your welcome Scott ). I've been back to thinking about sealing the heads. The basic plan is a copper flame ring, viton oring, aluminum shim plate like this
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The oring is a .070" cross section. Looing at available material thickness, I can get the copper in .050 and aluminum in 0.047 which will guarantee the copper is clamped giving 28-33% compression of the oring, so at to exceeding the high end of spec. That should yield a sealing force of 1500-2000psi which should be above what I need. Great.

Now the concern is I'm using to the oring to align the flame ring but the oring needs room to grow radially when its being compressed axially. Below are a few cross-sections. On the right is a rectangle .070 wide by .050 tall (1.778x1.27mm) and it has an area less than the oring, so that is a no-go. Moving left is the round oring and a couple deformed shapes with the same area (rubber doesn't compress, it deforms so the cross section remains about constant). I don't have FEA software available but I'm pretty sure the far left is going to be close so I need to leave about .0925 (2.35mm), or a clearance of .0225 (.57mm)...which means the oring is really aligning the flame ring until its compressed. I'm thinking I'm going to make the flame ring ID 86.5mm to go with the 86mm bore and just kind of hope that if I stick the flame ring in place with aviation sealant it stays there and the oring can compress out (it will stretch about 1mm to fit over the flame ring). The other option is I my the ID fo the flame ring large enough to to know it can never touch the piston at full 0-compression assembly but that both makes it thinner and lowers compression so yuck.

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I got a late start but still a productive day. I finished up on the lathe
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moved to the mill, got it all set up
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and realized the spindle hits the chuck .350 before the cut finishes.....so I got to set it up a second time
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Then cut some splines.
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The gear starts on. Tomorrow I'll do some deburring and check everything carefully, I d like to see the gear on the shaft before the shaft comes out of the machine.
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I did notice the gear is not perfect, there is a line where the metal is deformed. That made me sad.
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And the reamer and broach came so work for tomorrow.
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I remembered the shaft needs a couple grooves to peen the nut flange into to lock it so added those
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I decided I'd gotten a little greeted on the OD trying to get the most spline contact I could, the OD is supposed to be clearance to the spline but was rubbing so I polished off about .001 and the gear installed as a little press
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Then ream the other end. Reamers come with a chamfer cut that I just hate so I always stone a slight radius, it makes them cut a more accurate size and leaves a better finish.
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Now I need to make the broach support and a few keys so I can cut, index, repeat.
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Very nice.
Does the broach need that many index grooves though? One would just follow the previous cut.

 

How much liner protrusion does it have? And out of curiosity why the O ring? Why not make the fire rings fill the entire space in the aluminum sheet?

TR heads are not all that rigid. If the liners have the usual protrusion and there is not enough compressibility in the fire ring the heads will bend down when torqued and leave a trough lengthwise down the head allowing a leakage path at 3 and 9 oclock on the liner. BTDT.

I could put a leak down tester on it and over about 45lbs torque it would start to leak and the tighter it got, the more it leaked. The compressability of the fire rings vs the head gasket material is an important ratio with those heads. The 2 valve heads have much more rigidity.

 

I think it was a bad idea to put put the new style flanged liners in the old 400i block as the deck just doesn't have anywhere near as much meat. I'm still doing dirty work making the adapter shaft so I've left the engine closed but as once the shaft is done the heads will come off and I'll see it there is still protrusion. Originally I set it at .001-.002 but I honestly doubt its still there and you're saying its not enough any way. I will post the measurements once I haver them and won't be buying anything until I confirm those numbers.

The current though is the copper is just a flame ring to protect the viton and its the viton that actually seals. This should need much lower force and is elastic so if the liner moves the oring can expand. The head will clamp on the deck and stay there and the viton fit to whatever gap there is liner to sleeve. In theory.......

A buddy (sean aka luckydynes)) played with copper inside alum on his 308 and after several iterations got it to seal but the width or the copper was critical or iust wouldn't yield to fit and seal. He didn't ever get to adding SS wire orings, but that is what those do, concentrate the force to yield the copper to make it fit and seal, at least as I understand it, I could be wrong.

 

1 index groove is probably enough. I was thinking that with more there is less chance of error propagating and that once its on the rotary head its not much more work to just cut a full set....maybe helpful maybe not but I couldn't see any reason it could hurt basically.

Edit - I remember now, what I said plus at first the grooves won't be very deep so not much to bite on. The plan is to go around then cut the broach and continue until its to size meaning All the grooves will be very shallow the first few times around.