V-12 Engine into 308 Build, over on Grassroots

My goodness it needs a bath!
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Do your 348 seats fit directly into the factory positions ?

 

Excellent work! I am trying to decide if you’re an artisan or a crazy man.

 

2 things can be true at the same time

 

I'll lead with this

 

Yeehaw!!!!

 

Its clearly not really running on all cylinders. It fact getting it running at all wasn't so easy. It started of a few, then a few more....then wft is the temp gauge saying, hot? after a little confusion I realized the water pump wasn't pumping...I don't even know how that is possible but I added more water and pressurized the system until water came out the bleeder on top of the engine, and that fixed it the cooling system.....but it still wasn't running worth a damn and was now hot and it was dinner time.

While eating I realized that as part of fitting the air box and ducts I lower the throttle actuator but I never reset the TPS zero points. Also It was pretty obvious the intake had been leaking so the ITB balance was a mess. I fixed the TPS settings, roughed the TBS all the same with a .006" feeler gauge and cleaned the plugs....it popped to life at 4k rpm. Quick shut down and reset the idle throttle position which is what I'm doing at the start of the video and its at like 1200. It for sure wasn't firing on all 12 but I REALLY wanted to know if thew drop gears and trans worked so off I went while forgetting to unplug the laptop.

The drive went great! (mostly) I clicked through the gears up to 4th quick and clean. The clutch felt nice. The brake pedal as a little long at the end of the driveway, but the force to stop was nice and I honestly didn't even notice brakes on the rest of the drive so I think that means they where just fine. The new drop gears are pretty near silent and the trans adapter did work. All good.

There was a small puddle of oil in the driveway, hopefully its a fitting and I need to get all the cylinders running. Also my power steering was off....the controller is hanging under the dash so hopefully it a loose wire.

 

also, if you listen you can hear the front valance bang the road leaving the driveway too aggressively ...oops

 

Friggin fabulous Mark.

 

Tonight I looked for ther oil leak but didn't really find it....its high up somewhere on the right side is all I got.

The MAP sensors issue was a system baud rate setting. When I reloaded the model the system settings did not reload and I missed this one as it was on a hidden channel. Easy fix.

It didn't pull great yesterday. The log (until the laptop shut down which is way it was plugged in)says it was lean and bank 2 more so....I'm not sure 7 was running much if at all but the throttle never crossed 20% and it was getting leaner as it opened so TB sync buggered and MAP correction not working could be the whole answer so I'm not going to do any more digging until some of the other stuff it sorted.



Plugs 7 and 12 for sure look wet along with maybe 9 and maybe 3and 6.....I'm going to use the sealant tomorrow I think.

I'll try to run it tomorrow and use the sealer, then get some coolant in it so I don't repeat the cylinder rust. Then see where I am after that.

 

Some days are better than others and you can be pretty sure a day that needs that thought wasn't a great day.

It kind of started with I have no idea why the power steering isn't working. I thought I'd find a connector unplugged but no so that investigation continues. I have a CAN to usb thing I've never used so I'll try to connect to the can cheater thing I bought that tells the steering controller to turn on, ideally I would have don't this before when I knew it was working and could log what it was saying, no it its not working I'll need to buy a new one. If it is talking a new steering unit maybe. both bad options.

At the early tuning stages I like to get it started and know all the plugs are clean so clean plugs in and hit it with ether. It fired up nice, I'm pretty sure all cylinders were running this go. It sounded great so I add the head sealer and moved on to TB syncing. Something on the 9/10 adjuster is not quite right and it hit the limit of travel but I got is overall decent and as I adjusted and it warmed up rpm kept coming up so I had to back the TB position setting down as low at it kind of goes, then pull a bit of timing. I was running it kind of a fast idle like 1300-1500 figuring I'd pull it down once I was happy with everything but higher idle would keep all the cylinders running for now.

Coolant was showing about 80C and circulating nicely. The sealer stuff that wants it to idle for 50 minutes. At about 8 or 10 with me looking at the temperature readout on the ECU saying 82C while the gauge which is driven by the ECU say 140F like it was turned off, weird I was thinking as it overheated and spit water everywhere. The water has sealer in it so white spots everywhere now. I'm thinking I really should have put the cap on after I poured in the sealer but was thinking lower pressure is good and I know it says around 80C...no worries.

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It also covered the electronics. I dried everything hit it with ether, reconnected the lap top...what the heck is unknown board exactly I wonder?

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no fuel pump running at key on....and what do I smell.....its familar.....like the smoke leaking for electronics maybe. I opened the ecu and there is nothing obviously wrong plus the USB is talking to the PC, its just not saying anything helpful so it doesn't seem fried but clearly is not working. I reviewed the log and at first didn't really see anything.....why does the TPS say 5% when the table calls for 6%.....and didn't I change that to 5? The timing doesn't match what the log says was in the tuning table but does match what I remember setting it to and there is an rpm drop when the timing changes just like I remember...the log does not have the correct table values WTF is going on?

Wait a minute...what is going on with the battery voltage mostly 11-13 and dips as low as 6.5V about when I remember the engine nearly stalling and the log show rpm, fuel pressure and everything else dropped
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I pulled up the log from the drive Tuesday....13.8V from the time it started until the time the PC died. And I know I looked at the dash at least once, the alternator light was off. There was an odd sound that came and went but I was pretty focused on other things and figured I'd come back to it. I'm thinking the starter stuck and is now quite fried. The solenoid clicks but that seem to be it. I confirmed the engine turns fine and have a charger on the battery but I probably need a starter.


That brings me back to the ECU. It does a lot of wonderful things but it has a couple quirks. Power needs to be applied to the pins in a certain order and if I have a 6.5V in the log it likely was lower and the ECU could have shut down or more likely was powered by the 5V was applied from the PC through the serial connection and 12V permanent and 12V ignition on would have been reapplied together while the processor was already powered up....so all bad and very wrong.

There is also a thing it does where if for ANY reason a division by 0 occurs, if locks up, much like it is now. The solution to that is to open the ECU, connect a serial adapter directly to the board, and reload the firmware. Then power it up correctly and reload the program, then reload the model and all the data. I can't find my USB to serial adapter so I ordered another, it will be here tomorrow. Hopefully this will fix the ECU and if not I'll be down for a bit saving for a new ECU.

If the ECU comes back to life I'll pull the starter and replace it....I use a chevy unit, its 2 days and $90 on amazon.

It doesn't seem to be leaking oil any more really....little wins I guess.

 

In post 1869 am I seeing something that looks like a big red power cable wedged between the shock and stainless braided hose?

I'm probably reaching but maybe you're wearing through the insulation and getting an intermittent short.

Good luck.

-David

 

This morning before work I went out to the shop did more digging and found all the stuff I use for working on the ECU on the bench. Connected it and powered it up correctly and it appears to be working just fine. It reports its model and serial numbers which allows the PC to connect and everything looks just as it should. I'll leave it on the bench until I confirm the car's electric system are in order.

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When I connect the battery in there is a little spark just like always.... its small but I'd like to find out what it is and stop it. The starter solenoid still click but the starter does not engage, I'll pull it today and also inspect all the wiring to see if its safe to put the ECU back

 

If you pinned in any wires into the ECU plug make sure and check all the wires to make sure the wires are all seated. When I added a data logger to my ECU Black on my Exige I had dislodged a pin. My logs showed one of the VVT was not working. I checked all the wires, they were all locked in, or so I thought. I did a continuity test on that sensor, it had no continuity. I opened the lock on the ECU plug and the wire feel out. Turned out the wire was not all the way in on its lock but far enough that the second look was holding it. That mistake took a month to find.
Good luck!

 

For sure the starter is dead....and it hides neatly under the rear headers so maybe not quite 2 hours to pull it. I found one the LOOKS to be the same unit on amazon arriving tomorrow... as long as I was willing to take red and chrome instead of black and yellow zinc which is a week away so red and chrome (or bright zinc maybe) it is. Its a starter sold for chevys but I made a custom adapter nose for it so ideally this is the same starter I have and the nose will drop on.
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I did inspect the wires and found no issues. The one you can see in the pick had a very small rub mark (no where near through the insulation) from a past drive which is part of why I tried up up pretty nice this go.
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That could be what was going on with the temp gage in the dash, I'll need to check all the wiring. The issue with the logs is different because its the ECU itself making the log so to have the ECU doing 1 thing but recording another means something was very wrong inside the ECU. I'm pretty sure what happened is the main voltage dropped low enough that the ECU should have shut down...but it didn't because the USB cable was back-feeding voltage to parts of it as other parts shut down, then when they restarted they couldn't establish communication with the parts that had not shut down....something really weird like that. Also weird that it restarted with no issue on the bench so I need to get the volt meter hooked up and see it power is where it should be when it should be now that the probably shorting starter is out.

 

The ECU is back in the car and everything seems to be working again.

I readjusted the throttle actuator linkage and worked on 9/10 (I have to admit with a mallet) and all the TBs appear to fully close now.

I"m pretty sure the oil leak I was seeing is the oil return from the rear head to the block so there is no good way to fix it other than remove the head which IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. It is a 0 pressure gravity drain so I got it really clean and rtv'd the head to block seem which pained me more to do than its probably paining most of you to read.....but the head is not coming off.. fingers crossed its at least a very slow leak now.

Tomorrow morning I'll clean up the plugs again and get everything ready to reassemble. The starter say arriving by 10pm....nothign ever comes after 6 so hopefully it back together tomorrow or Sunday morning at the latest and ready for a Sunday drive.

Oh, I figured out the long brake pedal sensation I think. I have an in-line master connected to the parking brake handle that locks the rear brakes so when the car is parked and I push the pedal only the front moves but when I drive the parking brake it off so both front and rear move and there is about twice the pedal travel and that just feels weird after playing with the pedal when the car is parked.....I can't believe setups like I have are even legal.

Yesterday, moments after I shut the engine down with just about everything going wrong and me in a near panic my very private neighbor right across the street who buy only Porsches stopped by to say the car sounds amazing. He looked it over a bit and said, "I though you said you changed the engine?" Then today I sold a few car/shop bits and the 3 guys stopped by to pick the stuff up on there way to the drag strip, they also thought I was messing with them when I told them the engine din't belong in the car and it wasn't anything ferrari produced. Its those moments that make all the other stuff worthwhile because that is exactly the reaction I was going for and why you know there is no way I'm installing a red starter tomorrow without first paining it black.

 

It looks entirely appropriate because of the way you've done it. Every time someone I know brings up this build, we ALL laugh in amazement as it's all so clinical and I swear no one on earth would believe it could be done.....until someone goes and does it.

Like the 2.8L short-stroke NA Porsche 911 engine using a turbo block is the greatest Porsche engine Porsche never made, your V12 project is the greatest Ferrari engine Ferrari never made, but should have. Enzo sent a complimentary letter to the guy who stuffed a 250 V12 into his 308, I would think he would give you a medal, want to take a lap or 10 in yours, then a place you in engineering management. Keep at it!

 

I futzed today mostly. I pulled the plugs to clean them and for sure all the cylinder were running so that is great. ( was pretty white, but it was way of adjustment too so kind of expected and still at at least some color
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1,3,6,7,12 were a little wet.....fingers crossed on the blue devil. The instructions say 50 minutes, I got 8 maybe so 42 to.
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I cleaned the white mess off of most everything
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I messed with the steering a bit. the oscope is seeing data on the CAN line from the little steering enabler thingy. I tried to get my CAN to PC thing working to read it with out luck but that is a me not understanding how to set it up thing not a steering thing. So I'm still not sure why its not working......probably a winter project.

The starter arrived about 6:30 and was pretty near a copy of the old one
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Now to be completely honest I don't remember all the choices I made when originally adapting it so the fact that the housing as a lip much taller on the new than the old and a machining the adapter to accept the tall lip would cut the adapter apart makes me thing I cut the lip down on the old starter.
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So I decide to just swap housings. once it was apart it was clear the old starter was fried, it smells just awful inside...that sickening burned electric wires smell. The solenoid lever so also pretty sad making me kind of wonder if this was an ignition switch issue? I'll need to keep an eye on it.
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With it apart I painted the starter housing
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Then went to work swapping the front housings..and the new drive gear didn't fit quite right. I had to cut the pocket 0.030" deeper to keep the reduction gear from rubbing on the adapter housing.
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But by 8:30 it was cleaned up and assembled and ready to
pop onto the starter motor in the morning once the paint has dried. It should be about 2 hours to put everything together, but I don't want to fire it up before 10 maybe anyway. As long as the muffler is off I'll run the vacuum lines to the curt-out valves and maybe making getting that working a mid-week evenings project.
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Well thank you for the kind words.

The original used a Daytona block and 2 cam 330 heads
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Here's a copy of what looks like a post card he got from ferrari
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And here is something fun, the 1985 v12 engine prices ... he swapted his tired 308 even for the v12 parts!

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One other little bit that caught my eye in the Goldsmith book. He has a section talking about the why of the conversion and comments a mild hotrodding gets you 400hp and a 400hp 308 goes like a "scalded ape", something we continue to discover 40 years later. And the piece he said that I proudly (re)discovered is making the power using a V12 it will do it and still idle at 750 rpm. Everything old is new again.

 

A quick current status while I try to figureout why my laptop is off

https://youtube.com/shorts/RWWJGFVM-FM?si=hKx1UpE55IbYFChn

 

This video kind of ends at a random time because the gopro battery died and I didn't realized so the 2 go for a drive videos are just in the driveway and kind of worthless. But you do get to see how the tb sync goes, just look at the screem and turn the screws, pretty easy.


The last plug pull 1 and 12 were dry, 3, 6, 7 still wet. I've since put another heat cycle on but haven't check the pulls. I don't know how much sealer is actually in the engine after the overheat the other day so if it doesn't seal I may drain it and refill with fresh known quantiles.

I made a couple neighborhood laps and started playing with tuning....I'm trying to decide where a good balance between using timing of throttle for idle control is....less timing the TB are open more and easier to sync but its using more fuel and making more heat. Timing is set at 5 degrees right now and throttle at 7% which makes idle MAP about 50kPa instead of the 40ish and 5% I was running last time....I don't know.

I do know the plugs are coming out glazed, so too wet on start up and you can see it in the video. I pulled a bunch of fuel out of the start up table after the video and also leaned everything...I'll have a look at the plugs tomorrow as I'm still having trust issues with the WBO2, if a cylinder cuts out the lambda reading is hard to interpret. Its not snappy like it was last time yet but the drop gears remain quite then 2nd gear works perfectly so I think I'm in a better place.

 

Sorry for the delayed answer.....I've had a lot on my mind.

No, its not a direct bolt-in. I made adapters from 1/4" aluminum iirc, I did it 20+ years ago.

 

Here is what I"m looking at in the video, MAP readings for all the cylinders

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Quite a bit of variation but then on this it shows what the computer is doing to compensate....the low MAP cylinders get less fuel, the higher MAP cylinders more. There is a global MAP (cyan) that is used for global fuel and the cylinders are compared to that and ther correction applied so all the plugs come out about the same color.

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My engine builder recommended Brad Penn oil for my 3X8 and Lotus 26R engine builds. https://penngrade1.com/performance-proven-the-case-for-the-original-green-oil/