V12 engine rebuild bill?

I can't imagine how a complete and reasonably accurate Ferrari real-V12 retro replica--250 TDF, 250 SWB, 250 GT0, etc., could be sold here for less than half a mil, and that's with the assembly being done in China and some high production numbers.

 

Hog Wash! That would be a sad day if they were all replicas. If someone piled up a GTO on the Race Track, it would simply be a part of its racing history. There is nothing that cant be repaired for a small fraction of the value of the car. Fire and Theft are the only 2 concerns.
If someone has the resources to buy lets say a GTO, then $300K to completely rebuild a track damaged wreck shouldnt pose a problem.
I remember in the late 80's, Dr. Bodin would absolutly pound the wheels off the GTO (3223GT) at the Monterey track. At the end of the day Bob and Linda would drive it to Carmel for dinner, jump out and throw the keys to a valet attendent. I remember the kid turning white as a sheet and trembling. Bob and Linda never turned around and looked at the poor kid, they just walked into the resturant for dinner. The poor valet kid offered me a tip to move the car for him. We laughed about that until we both had tears running down our faces.
Would the same reaction be there if these were all replicas?
Dave

 

100hrs is more than reasonable. what happened to heads?

 

Was your engine 2 cam or 4 cam?

 

Carillo rods are 225 each, jobber cost That's is just short of 3000 if you have a regular account. A home shop certainly can not get one for one engine.

J&E pistons or original Borgos will run between 2400-4800

 

2 cam type 245 for 365GT. All new valves, J&E pistons, used oil pan as mine had been damaged in the past. Lots and lots of little stuff that came up as we went, like rebuilding the brake booster, radiator, new fans etc. etc.

 

Tom S.

I agree with you on the numbers. Also, new pistons for $50 each??? Charles must have some impressive contections to be able to find this kind of stuff lying about on someones shelf.

Art S.

 

Trust me I have collected several set of pistons laying around other people shelves.
Wallace/Bunkfedlt/Ottis/Jens/Caribou etc will not use these. Deemed useless. Name brands withheld.

 

Why withhold the brand names? Wouldn't it be of interest to all concerned if we knew what old brands of parts were deemed "useless" by the rebuilders? Might save some people a lot of money in the long run.

 

I prefer not to engage. There are major different philosophies in rebuilding engines. Race, street, longetivity, oil consumption, valvetrain noise in mind. Certain parts are then selected, based on rebuilders preferences, parts availablitity and customer requirements.

Most people know how to do stuff better and cheaper than myself, 20+ years experience trying to deliver cars and build my own cars, and better and cheaper than the "A" list of engine builders, each pumping out 12-20 reliable engines annually. Hell, I delivered 9 engines last year as cores, I have, for the record, absolutely positively no idea what is going on. I am just another F-Chatter.

It's best I leave this alone.

Words of wisdom, "Respect your elders"

 

I have a set of Venolias here at 9.5:1 that I bought with rings about 8 yrs ago--still new in the box. Paid 620.00 for them from Venolia. I am planning on Using JE now and have a quote from them at 100/hole.

oops--my bad on the rods--the quote on them was 1850.00

and--My original heads were stolen--later replaced with a set of 365 heads that are junk--situation still unresolved.........

 

Was a PPI done?
Dave

 

The valve stem is not unusual but that piston got VERY hot.

 

Sorry to hear that.
To clarify, I did not mean to say the stem is OK. It is the way they can get with very advanced age. When the adj screw wears through the hardening, with the valve spring pressure the single cam motors had, they get ugly fast.

 

Wayne,

My first comment is wow, I'm really sorry to see that!

My second comment is: considering the condition of the engine and since you already have the engine out, I would strongly recommend that you take a careful look at the rest of the driveline. When the engine is fresh, it's extra power will put extra force on the driveline and quickly reveal any undiscovered weakness (which will put you back in the shop).

Good luck,

Art S.

 

Agreed, there are not many 2 cam heads that I have taken off where all of the valves came out. Some were mushroomed over to the point a grinder had to be used to reshape the stem top for removal, so there is no supprise there. Worst ones were on cars where Porsche adjusters had been used and the foot fliped over.
Was that piston from one of the rear cylinders? It would be unjust of me to say it wasnt 4% leakage when it was checked, but on a vintage engine that is a pretty low number (best to worst) for even a fresh engine.
Dave

 

I would get in touch with Continental re: PPI or lack there of.
KEEP THE FAITH. It will be worth it.

 

Had the engine ever been rebuilt that you know of? Did it obviously fail after you took delivery? I guess I would assume every original engine in a 40 year old ferrari would have horrifying parts if you took it all the way apart. The only good part of a redone engine (by an established shop) is the value of the car rises by some fraction of what you pay for the work.
To me, reasonable leak down, compression numbers on a 40 year old engine that was probably not babied just mean that its OK on the day its measured. There's a reason ferrari dealers don't offer powertrain guarantees on the really old cars. I also believe there is a certain amount of comfort in finding a big thing wrong with you newly purchased car- at least you know why it was for sale (maybe less of a comfort if its the most expensive thing that can go wrong).
I still think the best complement to a PPI would be a good one to two hour drive in the car (even with the owner driving) to make sure it all works. Anyone owner afraid of driving the car for 60 minutes is hiding something.

 

Somtimes compression and leakdowns will not show such problems. I have been fooled a few times..one being on a Subaru with a rough running problem. I swaped out ECMs, injectors, changed intake gaskets etc. I did a leakdown test and a compression test..both check out just fine. I finaly said the heck with it and pulled the left side head, and removed the valves...burnt!! Not missing a peice or anything but it was distorted just enough for it not to be able to seat correctly when the engine was running. Engine off, spring pressure was able to keep it closed enough to pass a leakdown test.

Somtimes these types of things do happen. This site seems to lean on the "leakdown test" way to much for engine health. Although it is a good test, it is sometimes not reilable.

 

In that piston picture the second ring looks pretty intact, so it can very well have kept the pressure up when tested!

Best wishes, Kare

 

Agreed. 4% would put in the Guiness book range unless it had a recent motor.
My opinion is that it has been very hot since the last time it had good compression.

 

This guy's pretty smart too. I would think it worth a sit down.

 

I have seen several older V-12s with this valve stem problem and have been told by some very experienced Ferrari mechanics that it is fairly common. I had this problem on my 365GT2+2 which had a PPI before I bought it. A normal PPI will not find this problem. You must ask the shop to take off the cam covers and even then you may have to pull the cams out to find the problem. This is going to add quite a bit to the cost of a PPI but you better believe that is what I will have done next time. I have replaced all of the valves on my 365GT2+2.