V8 Crankshaft damping.

Discussion in 'Maserati' started by red27, Jan 17, 2015.

  1. red27

    red27 Formula Junior

    Sep 7, 2010
    476
    London UK
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    Mark Oliver
    I read about this company in the UK for the first time yesterday.

    torsional vibration

    They apparently make a flywheel mounted crank damper for the Maserati V8 (and others).
    Do any forum members have any experience of them? If they work well, then they seem a sensible addition to 4.9 engines especially.

    Best regards to all.

    Mark.
     
  2. staatsof

    staatsof Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 13, 2005
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    Boo
    You should speak with EMSEIGEL13 Elliot. He's been working on this for sometime now and I'm sure he could point you to someone who has researched and developed more than just a dampener for Maserati V8.
     
  3. emsiegel13

    emsiegel13 Formula Junior

    Oct 9, 2007
    273
    Grayslake, Illinis
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    Elliot M. Siegel
    I really like this new product. When I wanted to add a damper, I was forced to have a new crankshaft made by Crower and to modify the front cover that support the nose of the crankshaft as nothing was available at that time. This looks like a great situation that ould have saved me a lot of time, money and effort. From what I have been able to find out, the harmonic problem get really serious once you pass 5500 rpm for a V-8 engine. Perhaps that is the reason Maserati set the redline on the V-8 engines where it did.

    The email list above is not correct and if that is what the Ferrarichat information has listed for me, let me know and I will change it.

    Elliot
     
  4. emsiegel13

    emsiegel13 Formula Junior

    Oct 9, 2007
    273
    Grayslake, Illinis
    Full Name:
    Elliot M. Siegel
    I like the fact that it requires no major changes to the car. On my project I had Crower make me a completely new crankshaft with an extended nose and did substantial changes to the front casing supporting the crankshaft in order to mount a ATI harmonic damper. This looks like an excellent way to avoid all the things I did because there was nothing available at the time to accomplish mounting a damper. From what I have been able to find out, if you keep an V-8 engine under 5500 rpm the harmonic problem is not extensive. Only when you get to 6000-6500 will it offer severe difficulties. I wonder if that was the reason that the V-8 engines were redlined at 5500. P.S. my email is not as listed above. Check with the website and if that is what is on file let me know and I will change it.

    Elliot
     
  5. Quattroporte3

    Quattroporte3 Formula 3
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    Nov 13, 2010
    1,030
    Just out of curiosity, when checking the timing on the QP3 recently (separate thread), I noticed that there doesn't appear to be a harmonic damper on the pulley end of the crank.

    Did Maserati use dampers on their V8s at all, or only on certain models, or did they solve the problem of crankshaft torsional oscillation in some other manner?

    As I recall, Elliot's work was on a Bora. Wasn't the V8 engine basically the same across models, aside from the dry sump version used in the Ghibli and Khamsin?
     
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  7. red27

    red27 Formula Junior

    Sep 7, 2010
    476
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    Mark Oliver
    Elliot, thanks for your input. The apparent simplicity of the installation is what struck me also. This seems to be a quite elegant improvement.
    I will email for more details and share the response.
    I hope your Bora engine is coming along well and look forward to any further updates.

    Regards.

    Mark.
     
  8. staatsof

    staatsof Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I thought it was that guy in Germany who had performed a lot of very serious modifications to these engines and I thought for you that HAD really figured this all out?

    I've had mine @ 6000K for short times - a few minutes because of my gearing. The longer geared Boras can reach 160 MPH safely (I have no idea where the claims of 174 come from - Italian bravado?) but most the USA cars like mine have the wrong gears for that and redline @ 140MPH. I can hit 150 easily but I didn't dare stay there for very long. Just long enough to pass a 300ZXturbo but just barely! :D
     
  9. emsiegel13

    emsiegel13 Formula Junior

    Oct 9, 2007
    273
    Grayslake, Illinis
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    Elliot M. Siegel
    The pollution controlled US Boras had a different gear ratio, 4.22 as against the Euro ratio of 3.77 which is why if you observe the 5500 rpm limit you max out top speed a good deal lower. Believe it or not there was a magazine article in the early 1970 where the car was taken up to 6500 rpm and that equated to more than 170 mph. It's a wonder the engine didn't come apart but maybe the harmonic problem is acceptable for a short burst but not sustained high rpm. Anyway, some of our members have driven their cars at 150 mph and they have indicated that there is front end lift so it might not make any difference what the top speed is from a comfort point of view. For me, top speed isn't as important and sustainable high speed and point to point averages and that when you get where you want to go, you aren't beat up by the car you have been driving.

    My friend in Germany, Dr. Doll, has done tremendous work with the Maserati engines, from the 5000 to the 3500, V-8 to straight 6. He is my mentor and guide and has provided amazing insights for me and I respect his expertise greatly.

    Elliot
     
  10. staatsof

    staatsof Four Time F1 World Champ
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    The improvement in 0-60 times and real life driving conditions for delivery of torque makes the 4.22 the ratio of choice for my tastes. But I have a friend who took his 73 Bora and had Roy Butfoy put the 3.77 gears in as well as the the Pantera 5th gear which reduced the rpms even further. It wasn't about a top end quest he liked low rpms while cruising. Yes lift is a problem and it's at both ends of the car too! At 140 on my car without the Merak front lip it was manageable if not ideal. The Bora I piloted at 160 did have that lip. The issue wasn't noticeably worse so perhaps it did some good? The rear still lifted at that speed though so maybe it contributed to that symptom? All silly, academic issues now.

     
  11. Froggie

    Froggie Rookie

    Sep 27, 2017
    14
    Mark, did you pursue this route and install an harmonic damper?
    If from vibrationfree, what was the cost?
    I would also be interested in knowing the ease of installation and the outcome (if noticeable) in terms of vibrations.
     
  12. red27

    red27 Formula Junior

    Sep 7, 2010
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    Mark Oliver
    Hi Froggie. In the end I did not pursue the damper. I think it is a nice to have perhaps, but my engine is a 4.7 and so supposedly Less susceptible to crankshaft cracking. Added to this, there is no existing damper for a V8 Maserati engine (or wasn’t when I enquired)
    The one they had developed was for the lucky racers with 8CMs. They were willing to make one, but needed my flywheel as a pattern for it. The other wrinkle is that because I swapped from a twin to a single plate clutch, but have an early crank, the flywheel bolt pattern would not work for the majority of cars, so wouldn’t have been an off the shelf offering.

    Best regards.

    Mark.
     
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