V8 Timing belt change and verification by frequency | FerrariChat

V8 Timing belt change and verification by frequency

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by braq, Oct 21, 2022.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. braq

    braq Karting

    Mar 29, 2010
    227
    Hill Island
    Full Name:
    Paul XXXcX
    Hello all,
    I'd appreciate your input on the following:
    Changed the belt on a QV and went for the Ferrari method, torqueing the tensioner (Hill) bearing down at 42ftlbs on the position where the spring pushed it in the furthest.
    A friend, that did the belts on his 360 helped and tried out the GATES belt frequency app. He had measured around 200 Hz on his installation.
    Now...mine came up between 75 and 120Hz, as you would expect, there is going to be variation depending on where you are on the rotation ( valve spring to overcome or helping, compression).
    Questions: If you have, what are your frequency measurements (ideally there will be plenty of similar values so others can later use them for reference)?
    I do turn the crank with a ratchet and observe something like a "stick and slip" effect...takes more moment to brake loose and then once in motion the resistance is more constant...again to be expected...but the belt responds with being tight and then not...should I book it under "you are doing it by hand...later it will just run.." or should I be concerned look to get more force from the tensioner spring?
    And since we are all talking about this now...the friend push in the tensioners "all the way", himself now contemplating he has maybe done too much of what was thought a good thing. I argued that yes...if you actually have the spring all compressed and by chance picked the point with the least resistance (from the cams)...if you hit another one with more resistance all that can now give way is the elasticity of the belt itself (not to speak of the overall increased load on all bearings involved)...again your comments appreciated.

    Cheers
    Konrad
     
  2. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    BANNED Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,822
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Your wording is a little confusing to me. If by "the spring pushed it in the furthest" you mean it moved the tensioner bearing towards the belt the most = this is good as it gives the longest belt path length and the highest average belt tension (although the spring is compressed the least). If by "the spring pushed it in the furthest" you mean the coil spring of the tensioner assembly is compressed the most = not so good as this is the shortest belt path length = the lowest average belt tension.
     
  3. braq

    braq Karting

    Mar 29, 2010
    227
    Hill Island
    Full Name:
    Paul XXXcX
    Hi Steve,
    thank you for the request on clarification...I mean with the tensioner bearing bolt still loose going around 2 turns of the crankshaft and finding the position where the tensioner spring pushes toward the belt the furthest, the option you mentioned first.
     
  4. Portofino

    Portofino Formula Junior

    Sep 17, 2011
    854
    Yorkshire UK / Switzerland/ Antibes France
    Full Name:
    Portofino
    Ferrari method works on 308s .Any extra tension is absorbed by stretch .
    You just need to make sure the springs are good , read new ish not 45 y old .

    More here .
    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/308-cam-belt-tensioner-spring.226773/page-4

    The 360 s looking at the part is just a plain rotation tensioner no spring to push out so they can’t watch it while rotating the engine .like a older 308 and nip up the tensioner at max extension.Hence the Hz gadget .
    Comparing apples + pears .
     
  5. braq

    braq Karting

    Mar 29, 2010
    227
    Hill Island
    Full Name:
    Paul XXXcX
    Love it, so anyone with frequencies and engine?
    The link includes the same call for a database would be helpful mine stands as 1983 QV engine 75Hz low and 120Hz high.
    Thanks for the clarification on the 360 tensioner
     
  6. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    39,174
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Several pros have developed their own frequency readings over the years, but for obvious reasons, are not too keen on publishing the info.
     
  7. Ferrarium

    Ferrarium F1 Veteran
    Sponsor Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 28, 2018
    5,728
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Eric
    348 manual says to check belt tension with #1 piston at tdc. I'd bet the 308 also has a spec of where to check in the rotation?

    Sent from my SM-G990U using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  8. mwr4440

    mwr4440 Five Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 8, 2007
    57,969
    Bavaria, The 'Other' Germany
    Full Name:
    Mark W.R.
    #8 mwr4440, Oct 26, 2022
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2022
    You are giving Ferrari WAAAAAAAAY TOOOOO Much Credit, at least during that time frame.

    I may have very 308 Manual ever written/issued.

    Nothing more definitive than "crank it around twice and tighten the tensioner up. DONE."

    Hell, there was never a Workshop Manual (WSM) ever written for my car, '81 GTSi.

    I use IIRC, the 78 or 79 308GT4 WSM and the earliest 80's Mondial 8/Mondial QV (Two Cars in One Manual) WSM to work on my car depending on what part of the car I am working on.
     
  9. Ferrarium

    Ferrarium F1 Veteran
    Sponsor Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 28, 2018
    5,728
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Eric

    To be clear, the 348 WSM pretty much sucks too. Nothing like a Japanese manual or a Chilton's, information is scattered, I am aware. Often things conflict as well. I know.

    "crank it around twice and tighten the tensioner up. DONE." That's pretty much what the 348 manual says. In a other section it says something different. Then elsewhere there is 1 sentence in another part of the manual for the 348 that says put #1 piston on TDC for the tension check. Its not always in 1 place is all I was theorizing.
     
    mwr4440 likes this.
  10. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jun 11, 2004
    11,227
    CT
    Full Name:
    John Kreskovsky

    You must not have this. It's quite specific about where the the max tension point is on a QV.
     

    Attached Files:

  11. braq

    braq Karting

    Mar 29, 2010
    227
    Hill Island
    Full Name:
    Paul XXXcX
    The spring in the tensioner provides the force, watching (and torquing down) where this force is able to move the belt furthest "inward" would ensure that there is only points with "more" force for the rest of the circumfence. I doubt that would be #1 TDC coincidentally,
    cheers
    Konrad
     
  12. mwr4440

    mwr4440 Five Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 8, 2007
    57,969
    Bavaria, The 'Other' Germany
    Full Name:
    Mark W.R.
    John,

    Thanx for posting that. I do have the SBs, but haven't read them all thru thoroughly.

    I was well aware of the "MAX Tensioner Extension" criterion and use it myself when I change the belts on my 2V.

    Was totally unaware of the QV Specs presented here.

    Thanx Again.
     
  13. braq

    braq Karting

    Mar 29, 2010
    227
    Hill Island
    Full Name:
    Paul XXXcX
    Good atuff,
    finally got around checking it,
    if TDC is clutch/flywheel marker AND mark on oil filler cap...rear bank showed furthest travel around 210 degrees later
    front bank is at 360+90 degrees later. So the 20 degrees after OT as per bulletin does not appear to be furthest inward travel on mine.

    Got me thinking about the system...as long as the spring is not getting stiffer (how would that be?)...you can't really put on the belt too tight, because it's always the spring tension and nothing more (only a massive variation in travel and it bottoms out).
    cheers
    braq

    pS: English is not my first language....let me try again....the spring sets the minimal tension...and then through the variation over 2 crankshaft rotations there is some additional compression of the spring...but that should not be a lot (i'd say 2mm travel).
     

Share This Page