Sorry Nicolai, but Classic Data is completely nonsense, esp. for classic Ferrari. Very good 246 GTS with a perfect history are near 200.000 Euro, that's prooved by different sales the last few month. An E-series coupe in same condition is not over 150.000 Euro these days, which is a very huge sum of money. I see L-series in the middle of both. Remember, I'm speaking about cars with an extreme high standard in every point of view.
Here in Germany we have defined condition levels for these cars. One is the best (100% new, NO signs of use, Museum or never sold and what Volkmar is talking about) and 5 or 6 is a uncomplete spare parts car. As condition one is almost never existing, most of the vaule chapters are talking about condition two which is a restored car in good conditions without any remaining work. The price gap between 1 and 2 is big and even condition 2 has a range of cost and quality. In my opinion condition 1 or 2+ are so rare that these few sellings to buyers with enough money are reperesentative or valid to every eqal sale. Of course there are really good cars sold for 200K and a few more will as there are more people wanting a really good Dino as there are on the market. But I think the difference of value on a good Dino is more the condition and not GT and GTS. And it is individual taste, as we could read here a lot almost none of the GT drivers would change against a GTS and vice versa. I would never pay 10K extra for the open Top, having less space for my legs and missing the nice roof shape with the side windows, others do and it´s okay.
RHD Uk data to date, so no ability to separate Series as I don't track LHD. Image Unavailable, Please Login
INteresting. I can see that private sales reach the prices of dealers. What I saw w/ my BB. For answering another XLNT remark, I won't buy a 246 GTS even for 20K less.
I bought a GT after having owned my very nice GTS for 12 years, and then sold my GTS when I was offered a lot of money. The reasons why I sold the GTS were several - I got tired of the squeaky and often leaky Targa top (be honest GTS owners - they all squeak and rattle, the GTS weighs over 100lbs more, and the GTS flexes more than a GT does); I got tired of having the typical first Ferrari owner's red car (my GT is bleu met.); I like having the the better rearward sightlines from the driver's seat in the GT; and I have another car for top-down motoring - a big Healey. But that doesn't mean that I don't want another GTS! Just as long as it is something other than red.
I think that misstates the situation a little. John Corbani's car sold to Europe for a fair amount more than it would have if it had remained in the U.S. - I know because I should have bought it when it was offered to me. It may have been less pricey than an equivalent Euro version in Europe, but it certainly sold for more money than what U.S. buyers were willing to pay for it.
I'm surprised the Euro cars don't trade at a higher premium. Not only do they look better with the subtler turn signal and side marker lights, but a big plus is the extra 10hp (~5%) straight from the factory due to none of the power robbing smog gear. I'm a big fan of Euro cars from the mid-70s over the US cars since most manufacturers produced better cars for the ROW than they did for the US markets. Prior to the emissions/safety regulations in the mid-70s this wasn't an issue. (I may be biased owning both a Euro Dino and a Euro Carrera )
Try finding smog gear in place and operational on a US spec Dino today. The power arguement is a weak one. The lighting is up to what you like, I agree the US spec lighting isn't as nice as the Euro Spec Dino, but how many times have we seen that changed around (both ways) by now?
In addition to the power difference with a lot of necessary changes to get rid off, the RDW Dinos have less weight due to a lighter frame. During a US GTS restoration I was suprised how difference the metal tubes are. Starting with the double front and rear bumper holders, the beam to the bumpers are much more massive. In the trunk they even cause a not flat bottom with different gaslfiber sheet. In the doors there is a misive square shape beam against side impacts which is like 20 times bigger than the small European one. If everything is original the combination of poorer shape (turn signals/side markers), 20 HP less and the additional weight makes the difference.
I have to disagree on all counts - except for the 2-post bumper support. There are two commonly held misperceptions about US Dinos. One is that they are significantly heavier than the Euro version. They are not. The other is that their engines produce less horsepowers. They do not. I will be discussing the horsepower issue in a separate thread. Heavier frame? That is complete news to me. I very much doubt that Ferrari welded up separate, heavier frames for the US version, but I am always willing to learn something new. It would be interesting to hear exactly which frame members you saw as having been beefed up. Is it possible that the difference you saw in the US car, was due to the fact that it was a later production version? Or, more likely, that it was a GTS, which does have a slightly heavier frame? I have not seen anything that looks like a heavy reinforcement in my car, or any other US Dino. The bumper supports in the US version did indeed use two tubular supports instead of one. They are less flimsy than the European version, but the weight penalty for this improvement should be neglible. Door beams, what door beams? I have never seen any. My 1973 US GT (March -73 production, #05020) does not have them. Could they have been added only during the last year, or perhaps only in the GTS? In either case, it means most US Dinos do not have them. So again, no weight penalty there. A stock US Dino does carry some additional weight in the form of an air pump and associated plumbing, but they are bolt-on items which can easily be removed. On most US Dinos, they have already been removed. Many, but not all, US Dinos are equipped with A/C. That, of course, will add a significant amount of weight. But it would be no different from a Euro Dino equipped the same way. In the end, the only significant difference between the US and Euro versions are the rectangular side marker lights and the recessed turn signals! In other words, strictly visual. The aversion to the US model in the European market is completely illogical and based on myths and hearsay, rather than facts, in my opinion. A proof that this attitude may slowly and gradually be changing, though: A US GT with the side marker lights removed, and turn signal lenses converted to the flush Euro type, sold at an auction in Paris this year for $184,000. It had a fresh paint job, but was otherwise only in average condition.
With these cars it appears as though there are no certainties. In this link you can see photos of a US spec GT with single tubes for the bumpers: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=299404 There are lots of photos so you will have to scroll to post #47 to see it. On the subject of power differences, I can only assume that all of the bolt on items of the US cars must rob some power from the engine but to put a HP number to it is just a guess and I think that most of the 'quoted' numbers have no real data to back them up. From a personal perspective I much prefer the Euro cars. The US marker lights ruin the shape for me and all of the emissions equipment just clutter the engine bay and complicate all of the car's systems. When shopping for a Dino one of my criteria was that it HAD to be a Euro.
Yes, I found the photo, thanks. Single post bumper supports, front and back. Interesting. The change to two posts must have come some time after #3666. I also saw photos of the inside of the doors. They look just like the ones in my car, with no side impact beams. No argument from me that the Euro version is more aesthetically pleasing and desirable. I was only trying to point out that the criticism usually launched against the US version regarding weight and power, is unjustified.
Lars, you are wrong. If your car or the Dinos you have seen have no differences doesn´t mean they are not existing. Don´t get me wrong: I don´t want to judge the value difference of a US or EU Dino. Maybe in the US the people like their versions more and would pay less for a Euro Spec car, but it seems to be the other way around (for sure at least the "optic" is no point of discussion). I agree that you can change most of the stuff back and I found also your technical power caomparison reasonable. And it is ok if you dont mind some more weight or the frame modifications makes sense in reinforcing the car or giving more safety. But they are there, see my pictures between an GTS and my M-GT: Door from my GT (compare the size of the horizontal metal frame to next picture): GTS Door (with heavy "Beam"): Front Frame from an EU Dino 246 with small round tubes: Front US Frame with rectangular, bigger front frame: (I´m not talking about the "cross", mainly the frame to the water cooler and the bumper is much more rigid) The other components are adding also weight, I had the US exhaus manifolds in my hands and would say their weight is 3 times the weight of the EU manifold. BTW, inside after removing all that insulation and double metal sheets- technical they are the same. Which means no reason for power loss ;-) US Manifold: EU Manifold:
No, I don´t think I am wrong, if you read what I actually wrote: Most US Dinos do not have the door beams. Since US GT models as late as 1973 and serial numbers as late as 5020 did not have them, it means that they must have been added only during the last year, 1974 - if they ever were used in the GT at all. That means: The majority of US Dinos do not have them. The photos of the front frames are interesting, thank you. The problem is that you are comparing a GT to a GTS. It is a well known fact that the GTS is heavier than the GT, by 40 or 50 lbs (I have forgotten the exact number) because it had to be reinforced, like any car that loses its roof. Besides, it is of a later vintage. We know that Dinos evolved continously, so you have to compare cars of similar vintage. Instead, you should compare your photos to another GT of US specs, such as #3666 in the thread referenced by Nuvolari above: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=299404 In post 22 on page 2 you can see the front frame with the thin tubular structure, just like the one in your car! Also look at the inside of the door in that thread. Again, just like the one in your car. So, we have to agree to disagree on this subject. I still insist that a US GT and a Euro GT of the same vintage, with the same equipment, will be very close in weight. If the US version weighs 8 to 10 lbs more due to the exhaust manifold (with air pump, etc. removed) - and I doubt it is that much - I would still call that insignificant.
I have a U.S. model GT, but must agree that the European model, sans those side narkers and with flush front indicators, is a lovelier car. I prefer the interior of the latest Dinos, but would have wanted the option of knock-off (Rudge) wheels. Visually, I prefer the GTs over the GTS. However, in the thin market for original, very good condition Dinos, one gets what's available. Ultimately, if I were again in the market, I would buy the best car available for my budget, whether it is an early Dino or a late one, and whether a U.S. or a European car. Unless I already had one, I would probably insist on a GT though! My best, Andy
As far as aesthetic proportions are concerned, in my opinion the M and E Series Dinos are the best. I owned an L-Series which I loved for many of the reasons mentioned. The one area that bothered me about the L-Series were the wheels were buried in the wheel-wells. I contemplated making new wheels that fit the rudge hubs with an improved offset. With the M and E Series it starts with a better wider offset, you can improve it with spacers or Campys(or other wheels). Also...the proportion of the longer wheelbase(behind the cabin) of the 246 vs 206 visually gives it more balance. Would I kick a 206 or L-series out of bed? No chance!!! In my opinion, there is no such thing as a bad looking Dino, Euro, U.S., GT or GTS! Just some you like better. It could be as simple as color combo or set-up. Best, Freeman
I agree with you, Freeman. Except for the Rudge wheels, the later 246s have better visual appeal. By the way, one can get Rudge conversion kits for 60s Triumph sports cars with bolt-on wheels. I wonder whether the spline and other dimensions will match and, of course, they would be unoriginal (I wouldn't install them), but they're an interesting thought. Andres
