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Valve Guide replacement....

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by Laurens W Floyd Jr, Jan 5, 2022.

  1. Laurens W Floyd Jr

    Sep 15, 2020
    8
    Full Name:
    Laurens W. Floyd Jr.
    I own a 1999 456M GTA I bought with 12k miles on the odometer. After changing all the fluids etc. the car runs very well. Looking through the extensive records of service I see the car has not had the valve guides replaced. I do see white smoke coming from the exhaust on cold starts and occasionaly on a warm start. It has uses no oil since I received it. My research tells me it is the valve guides. Can any of you give me an estimate of what a Ferri dealer would charge for that and/or a Ferrari mechanic at an independent shop?

    Thank you!
     
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  3. greyboxer

    greyboxer F1 World Champ

    Dec 8, 2004
    11,608
    South East
    Full Name:
    Jimmie
    So if it 'uses no oil' & 'runs very well' why do you feel the need for a rebuild ?
     
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  4. zstyle

    zstyle Formula Junior

    Jun 28, 2007
    464
    Fountain Hills
    Full Name:
    Jon
    A better way to tell the root cause for the smoke is have someone watch you drive:

    Upon deceleration, if there is smoke it is likely valve guides due to the vacuum pulling oil past the valve seals and guides.

    Upon acceleration, if there is smoke it is likely piston rings.

    Independent machine shop will run roughly $150/guide/valve (cost includes labor and materials).
     
  5. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    28,967
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall

    Are you looking to needlessly throw away $10,000?

    Tell you what, just mail it to me and save yourself further trouble.
     
  6. Laurens W Floyd Jr

    Sep 15, 2020
    8
    Full Name:
    Laurens W. Floyd Jr.
    Well it would not be a rebuild as the engine will not be dropped. It is a very common issue
     
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  8. Laurens W Floyd Jr

    Sep 15, 2020
    8
    Full Name:
    Laurens W. Floyd Jr.
    It is a very common issue with the 12 cylinders of that era as Ferrari used an alloy that had too much copper in the guides. Most are now replaced with sintered steel guides. The white smoke is the common way on cold startup that it is the guides. I knew that when I bought the car. The services on the car indicated the replacement had not been done so I know eventually it had to be done....just wondered an approximate cost to do so.
     
  9. Laurens W Floyd Jr

    Sep 15, 2020
    8
    Full Name:
    Laurens W. Floyd Jr.

    I did that and it was on deceleration and starts. Thank you for hrlping me.
     
  10. Fcar tech

    Fcar tech Karting

    Oct 22, 2021
    54
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    Full Name:
    XXXX
    How much oil are you going through ?
    You may be looking for a problem that doesn't exist yet..
     
  11. Laurens W Floyd Jr

    Sep 15, 2020
    8
    Full Name:
    Laurens W. Floyd Jr.
    In earlier reply it mentions that a vacuum will pull a bit of oil through the seals and guides of the piston on cold startups and/or deceleration. It is a well known issue with a bad alloy and it usually is replaced by sintered steal guides. Anyway I got an answer earlier of $150/ cylinder for parts and labor so that answered the question. Sooner or later they have to be replaced.

    Thank you.
     
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  13. Fcar tech

    Fcar tech Karting

    Oct 22, 2021
    54
    Always nearby
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    XXXX
    Understand that price quoted would be machine shop work only..
    Heads would need to be removed etc..
    Brian's figure would be a lot more realistic.
     
  14. Laurens W Floyd Jr

    Sep 15, 2020
    8
    Full Name:
    Laurens W. Floyd Jr.
    Thank you. I thought that sounded a bit low but I did not know.
     
  15. zstyle

    zstyle Formula Junior

    Jun 28, 2007
    464
    Fountain Hills
    Full Name:
    Jon
    Correct, the $150/guide is after the heads are removed and dropped off at machine shop.

    Removing heads in the car is not a fun process.
     
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  16. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    28,967
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    It is not that big an issue on the 12's. I have seen them go many times more miles than you have done and still not be symptomatic. Doing it now is like removing your appendix because it could in the future be a problem. Were you to bring it to me with the symptoms you have I'd turn you away. I have enough cars to fix that are really broken to take one apart that is perfectly fine. But then I know a lot of shops that do not let that bother them.
     
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  17. Fcar tech

    Fcar tech Karting

    Oct 22, 2021
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    XXXX
    The above was very well explained.
     
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  18. Laurens W Floyd Jr

    Sep 15, 2020
    8
    Full Name:
    Laurens W. Floyd Jr.
    IIt looks like quite the task so that is why I want someone who has had success in the past do it.....not me!
     
  19. 308 GTB

    308 GTB F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 7, 2002
    10,409
    New Jersey
    Full Name:
    Barry Wolinsky
    You seem intent on changing your valve guides. I'm sure you'll find someone to do it...and take your money...


     
  20. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    35,239
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    How about actually doing a leak-down test to see if you even have a problem? The bad "brass" valve guides were pretty rare on the 456M and "white smoke" is often water vapor. If you did have to replace the guides, using Ferrari sintered steel guides is a very expensive way to go. Good bronze guides are much less expensive and just as reliable and long-lived. Do the leak-down test first and come back to us for options on doing guides if they actually need doing. Likely better to send the heads to a really good machine shop than have your tech do them.
     
  21. zstyle

    zstyle Formula Junior

    Jun 28, 2007
    464
    Fountain Hills
    Full Name:
    Jon
    Speaking of Leak Down test, you generally want to see less than 10% variance between cylinders on one bank. If the smoke is from oil leaking past guides or piston rings, it should be a tint of blue and not purely white.
     
  22. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    11,477
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    I would not worry about white smoke, I would worry only if the smoke is blue. Can you be sure that the smoke is blue?
     
  23. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    28,967
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    White that dissipates is usually condensation. White that lingers and smells bad is antifreeze.

    Many have trouble distinguishing between blue from oil and white from steam. I do not draw conclusions from descriptions, only personal observations.
     
  24. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    28,967
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    If he is insistent on using the Ferrari sintered iron guides it will be more than that just for the guides.
     
  25. zstyle

    zstyle Formula Junior

    Jun 28, 2007
    464
    Fountain Hills
    Full Name:
    Jon
    Valid point about guide types. Once guides are replaced, the seats will need to be recut to match the new location of valve plus tip height. No guarantee replacing guides will not result in replacing other components too (such as valves). The snow ball can roll down hill fast once the engine is opened.

    If you'd like more opinions, post a cold start video.

    *I do recommend someone with expertise remove/install camshafts/heads/engine as you can easily bend a valve when re-installing camshafts if the engine is not clocked/positioned correctly.
     
  26. Timmo

    Timmo Karting

    Aug 26, 2017
    60
    Continental Europe
    Replacing 12k miles old valve guides... Just curious, how old are your tyres?
     
  27. killer58

    killer58 Formula 3

    Jun 30, 2010
    1,176
    CA & DC
    The guides on my 99 M GTA went bad at 17K miles.
    Cost was around $10K.
     

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