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Vehicle turns over but will not start. Electrical issue 100% positive

Discussion in '348/355' started by Mrjrockyt1979@topless348, Nov 24, 2019.

  1. Mrjrockyt1979@topless348

    Nov 21, 2019
    19
    Simpsonville south carolina
    Full Name:
    James Rocky Taylor
    So. I have a real mess on my hands folks. I have a 1994 348 spider that someone made a rather valiant effort to deprive me of. They made a real mess out of the ignition switch. Ok. So I tried (having some vehicle wiring knowledge that would suffice such a repair. Apparently when the viper alarm was installed they left a section of soldered wiring exposed when I went to slide the ignition switch back into the column there was a brief arc followed by a small puff of grey smoke coming from the passenger footwell. Ok. So I check all fuses and all wiring. Nothing appears to be burned and no blown fuses whatsoever. I can get the car to turn over but not start. Also I am lacking most of my accessories. My headlights, wipers and pretty much everything on the column is dead. Any ideas on where I should be looking next? This has been an absolute nightmare and a half. Also. Did these cars have any type of immobilizer on them back some 25 years ago?
     
  2. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Rookie

    Feb 20, 2015
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    #2 Qavion, Nov 24, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019
    Sounds ominous. I'm not sure how you would even begin checking all the wiring. Which wire had the solder on it or, rather, what did it equate to on the car side of the steering column power plug? Red? Blue? White? Yellow-Red? Yellow-Black, etc? Knowing this may help figure out what was shorted to earth (I assume the solder was shorted to earth and not to a live terminal)
     
  3. Ferrarium

    Ferrarium Formula 3
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    Jul 28, 2018
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    No immobilizer in the 348, in the 355 yes.
    The timeline here is very unclear.
    1) Was it working then you went to get a viper put in and it got messed up?
    2) Was it working then all of a sudden stopped working?
    3) Was it working and you tried to pull the alarm out and now it worn work?
    4) You got the car like this and it never worked so its all unknown?
     
  4. yelcab

    yelcab F1 Veteran
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    Nov 29, 2001
    9,304
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    Mitchell Le
    There is a relay known as the "ignition controlled equipment relay" and that must have been popped. Look for it on the schematic.
     
  5. Mrjrockyt1979@topless348

    Nov 21, 2019
    19
    Simpsonville south carolina
    Full Name:
    James Rocky Taylor
    Thanks. I’m going to say that would likely be the culprit. I didn’t see any individual fuses like I would expect on another make of car for anything related to the ignition or a accessories whatsoever. I have service manuals for my car so I will do some research tonight on this. Thank you for potentially pointing me in the right direction.
     
  6. Mrjrockyt1979@topless348

    Nov 21, 2019
    19
    Simpsonville south carolina
    Full Name:
    James Rocky Taylor
    Blue wire
    was the one that was soldered.
     
  7. Mrjrockyt1979@topless348

    Nov 21, 2019
    19
    Simpsonville south carolina
    Full Name:
    James Rocky Taylor
    And yes. Shorted to earth.
     
  8. Miltonian

    Miltonian F1 Veteran

    Dec 11, 2002
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    Jeff B.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login Are you aware of the master "buss-bar" fuse (50amp) located behind the fuse panel in the right footwell? It's the copper strip held on with two nuts. It will take out most of the electrical system on the car, and it isn't very well identified in the shop manual or owners handbook. Be careful not to ground your wrench or the wire when working on it!
     
  9. Mrjrockyt1979@topless348

    Nov 21, 2019
    19
    Simpsonville south carolina
    Full Name:
    James Rocky Taylor
    I was not awAre of that. However mine doesn’t look like that at all. Mine has 3 posts.
     
  10. Mrjrockyt1979@topless348

    Nov 21, 2019
    19
    Simpsonville south carolina
    Full Name:
    James Rocky Taylor
    And also if it were compromised wouldn’t it. Be visually obvious? Mine appears to be intact between all 3 cable terminals attached to the bar itself.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  11. Miltonian

    Miltonian F1 Veteran

    Dec 11, 2002
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    Jeff B.
    Sorry, I had forgotten that the Spiders electrical system is slightly different from my older ts (sold many years ago). There may be two of these contact strips on your car. I don't have the diagrams for the Spider, seems to me they were in a separate folder from the tb and ts. If you saw smoke come from under the passenger footwell, I'd bet one of these bussbars has popped.
     
  12. Mrjrockyt1979@topless348

    Nov 21, 2019
    19
    Simpsonville south carolina
    Full Name:
    James Rocky Taylor
    But really that seems so logical of an explanation as to why my car won’t do much at all. It does still turn over however keep in mind. Just won’t start but I have no instrument lights and the only thing that works are my hazards, central locing system and park lamps.
     
  13. Mrjrockyt1979@topless348

    Nov 21, 2019
    19
    Simpsonville south carolina
    Full Name:
    James Rocky Taylor
    Yea. I only see one of them under there. It’s gotta be the buss bar though. I swear. If I ever get my hands on the creep that tried to steal this car (and I just might very well Do that very thing because the story is beginning to have holes in it amongst some people I know) it’s going to be a really bad day for them.
     
  14. Mrjrockyt1979@topless348

    Nov 21, 2019
    19
    Simpsonville south carolina
    Full Name:
    James Rocky Taylor
    Also. Any clue who might have an ignition switch with keys up for sale? I checked on eBay and all I found was an entire column and it had cut wiring in it. I heard an Alfa Romeo spider switch and lock cylinder is the same. Any truth to that?
     
  15. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Rookie

    Feb 20, 2015
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    I don't understand how shorting the blue wire to earth would do anything unless you had the battery turned on and your ignition key was away from OFF when you were installing the switch. The blue wire shouldn't have power until you do that.

    The battery bus bar is a slab of metal. Why would that pop? Surely the red battery wire going to the ignition lock would melt before that does. Are you sure you haven't melted something inside the lock? Does your first position (accessory) do anything? (e.g. can you hear the ABS pump). Your ignition lock start contacts work, so you are still getting battery power to the lock and to the (engine) start contacts of the lock.

    The type of Alfa lock which matches is probably harder to find than the Ferrari one. There was someone experimenting with Fiat locks (pulling them apart and trying to swap components), but I think the best they could do was have an ignition lock without an accessory position. It's feasible, but not not necessarily ideal. See the link below.

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/ferrari-348-ignition-switch.585995/#post-146236031
     
  16. Pangea

    Pangea Formula Junior

    Mar 27, 2011
    373
    UK
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    Nick
    I would check this first. Ive had the same sort of fault symptoms and it was this .Also called the control relay for key operation my manual.. Relay E possibly off the top of my head.
     
  17. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic Formula 3
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    According to the wiring diagram, there should be two blue wires, a thicker (2.5 L) and a thinner (1.5 L) one, on one terminal of the ignition switch. They go to the footwell fuse/relay box but do not connect to anything inside; they just go through and are connected to one point somewhere inside the box, branch out again into two wires which come out on two of the box other pins to which two wires, yellow and yellow/black of the same thickness (2.5 G and 2.5 GN) are connected. The yellow and yellow/black wires provide ignition switched power, one wire to the LH and the other to the RH ECU and Ignition Coil.

    Why there was a short somewhere in the fuse box when the solder on the blue wire(s) touched the ground is not clear. If the ignition switch was in the ignition "on" at that point, then it would have smoked the ignition switch. If you are sure the smoke came from the footwell fuse box, inspect the connectors through which the two blue wires enter the box and also inspect the connector through which the thicker yellow and yellow/black wires come out. You will have to refer to the fuse box wiring diagram to identify the connectors. If there are no signs of burning of any of the connector pins, then you will have to remove the fuse box and inspect the copper traces on the internal circuit board; possibly a blown trace.
     
  18. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Rookie

    Feb 20, 2015
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    +1

    I've noticed this before in the WSM diagrams. However, when working on one problem with an owner, it was noticed that there was only one blue wire. There must be jumper wires inside the relay panel to provide links to the various components and connectors. One blue wire may be normal.
     
  19. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic Formula 3
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    Probably revised to just one thicker blue wire. Two blue wires going from one terminal of the switch all the way to the fuse box to be joined there again was a strange design. Anyhow, all links inside and through the fuse box are copper traces on a printed circuit board and, if any is blown, it can be bridged with soldering a short piece of wire.
     
  20. WATSON

    WATSON F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Sep 9, 2010
    10,338
    WI
    Call FerrParts. They might have a used set for you.
     
  21. Mrjrockyt1979@topless348

    Nov 21, 2019
    19
    Simpsonville south carolina
    Full Name:
    James Rocky Taylor
    Is there a chance (please god no) that I could have fried the ecu units by this happening? If so I am in for a world of trio blue. I ordered a new ignition switch. Will be here in a few days. I am going to start there.
     
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  22. Mrjrockyt1979@topless348

    Nov 21, 2019
    19
    Simpsonville south carolina
    Full Name:
    James Rocky Taylor
    Trouble. Not trio blue.
     
  23. Ferrarium

    Ferrarium Formula 3
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    Sure hope the ecu etc is fine, I suspect it is, disconnect the negative cable if in doubt before doing something. New switch as in OEM one or alfa or other cross reference part?
     
  24. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic Formula 3
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    It should not be the case but we don't know. If the battery is not disconnected, the ECUs will have permanent +12V on their Pins 18. The ignition key switched +12V, via the blue wire, is sent to the ECU Pins 27 to "wake-up" the ECUs from their standby states. Not likely but there is a possibility that, if the Pins 27, instead of being energised with +12V from the key switch, are grounded, some current flow is caused through the ECU circuitry from the Pins 18 (having permanent +12V) to the Pins 27 and to the ground.

    The good news is that the Pins 18 get fused permanent +12V which, hopefully, protected the ECUs if there was the mentioned stray current flow. Fuse 18 is for one and Fuse 14 for the other ECU in the footwell fuse box. Pull these two fuse out and carefully inspect, not only the fuses for being blown, but also check their sockets for any signs of burning/melting. Also check whether fuses 18 & 14 are correct, 10 Amp. If the fuses are good and there are no signs of burning in their sockets, and if you are certain that the smoke came from the fuse box, you will have to unplug it, open it up and inspect the internal printed circuit copper traces.
     
  25. Mrjrockyt1979@topless348

    Nov 21, 2019
    19
    Simpsonville south carolina
    Full Name:
    James Rocky Taylor
    And if the traces are compromised? What next after that? Can it be repaired or would that mean an entire new fuse panel would be what is in my future?
    ya know now that I think on it. I have had the entire lock mechanism apart twice and reassembled it correctly both times and no. I cannot recall the abs pump initiating however I did hear the fuel pumps once that I can recall. I ordered a switch and keys from a gentleman in Arizona that was in an early 355. Same style switch, wire locations, coloring and the exact same harness. I’ll have it on Monday if everything with the holidays doesn’t slow shipping down to a crawl. I have to get this car running, have preventative services performed and the vehicle into climate controlled storage for a few months as I will be away taking care of some business affairs and just taking a much needed break following a hectic year. This was just the last loose end to tie up so I could do such.hopefully the new ignition switch will at least partially remedy the issue and I will also look into all other possible avenues that everyone has suggested as possible areas of concern. This is my first Ferrari mishap so to all of you I thank you very much for the help on this. Seems like the Ferrari community is a fine group.
     
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