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"Vettel Could Have Done Nothing Different"

Discussion in 'F1' started by aaronrgonz, Jun 11, 2019.

  1. csmjr91090

    csmjr91090 Rookie

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    No, he was penalized for “unsafe reentry”, not impeding Hamilton.

    The problem is that the Stewards thought Vettel was in control of his car and didn’t need to get back on the racing line. That’s absurd, but that was their view. So it’s an issue of control vs uncontrollable.

    Vettel’s car lost control and sent him into the grass where there is zero grip. Had he done anything else, he would have spun or crashed the car.

    As to your other point, Vettel didn’t hit another car. He lost control, regained it on the racing line which still left Hamilton space, and once Vettel saw Hamilton (which was impossible from the grass), he moved to the left.

    I don’t think Hamilton necessarily has to slow down and let Vettel recover before he makes a move. But notice how Hamilton never locks his tires. He could have chosen the inside line, thought that’s quite risky considering there could be marbles.

    Hamilton does have to yield if there was a car in his way, just as you would on the road.

    I don’t think either driver did anything wrong and it’s simply a racing incident.


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  2. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Global Moderator
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    Ok,

    Doesn't really answer my question, but ok.

    If I know where you're reentering the track, then hell yes I'd avoid it. But am I REQUIRED to? Do racing rules say I have to assume someone is heading somewhere and vacate that area to allow it, and I guess as a professional drive, I'd know EXACTLY where an out of control car trying to regain control is going to end up?

    Again, for clarity. Is Hamilton required to give way to a car that is off road re-entering the track? Not asking if it makes common sense to do so, asking if the rules require it. F1 seems to have crazy rules to begin with, but I kind of doubt they have one that requires a driver to be nice to another driver..

    D
     
  3. csmjr91090

    csmjr91090 Rookie

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    The rear stepped out before he was on the grass. Thats what caused him to go on the grass in the first place.

    Nice try though.


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  4. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Global Moderator
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    Alright, it's getting a little less fuzzy.

    Vettel left the track out of control, lost complete control in the grass, reentered the track UNDER CONTROL, but in what was considered an unsafe manner for entering the racing line?

    Hamilton states he'd have done the same thing.

    The stewards saw it as reckless and dinged him 5 seconds, costing him the race? If Vettel knew he had a 5 second penalty (and he did) why not just stretch his lead to 5.1 seconds and win anyway? Didn't have the speed to do that? Given that, who knows if Hamilton would have passed him if there had NOT been a penalty? Of course, I get there was no need for him to try, just to stay within 4.99999 seconds of Vettel. But, Vettel clearly couldn't run away from him or he would have.

    If instead they had simply made Vettel give the position to Hamilton, would Vettel have been able to retake the lead?

    Lots of ifs here. Doesn't seem to me that either guy did anything wrong, and that both did their best, given the circumstances, to win the race.

    Hard to overturn on appeal? Don't know the process, but once you make a decision that effects race strategy, hard to take it back.

    D
     
  5. werewolf

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    #30 werewolf, Jun 11, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
    Absolutely, unequivocally NOT. Hamilton is NOT required to yield to another car, re-joining from the grass. Per the rules, it's the responsibility of the rejoining car, to do so safely.

    Furthermore ... these rules don't suddenly "invert", if the car in the grass happens to be out-of-control.

    For clarity on my part: i'm answering your question about what the rules state, not if there was a better line Hamilton could have taken through the turn.
     
  6. WPOZZZ

    WPOZZZ F1 Rookie

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    Vettel could have done something different. He could have crashed into the wall and taken both he and Lewis out of the race. F1 drivers are the very tops in their driving skills, but sometimes dog **** luck plays a role, too. I still say it is a racing incident.
     
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  7. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 F1 Veteran
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    Once Lewis saw Seb go into the grass, Lewis has 2 choices in this chicane....1) take the inside line and Seb passes in front of him gaining control. OR 2) take the outside line, which he does.

    Obviously this is all split second decision making.

    Does Hamilton have to yield to an out of control driver reentering the track?

    In this case, no he(Lewis) doesn't. Seb had enough momentum and was in line to put the car back on track. Had Seb slowed to a crawl in the grass then Seb would have to enter the track cautiously but by then Lewis would have passed Seb
     
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  8. werewolf

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    Of course it did!

    And you think that means it wasn't Vettel's fault, that the rear stepped out ... because he didn't have control in the grass later? And you think Nigel Mansell says that it's not the driver's fault, if the rear steps out?

    Amazing.

    Sequence of events: Vettel loses traction at the rear. Vettel heads for the grass. Once he's in the grass, he has no control ... just like Nigel Mansell says.

    In no way, does Mansell state that Vettel losing traction at the rear (which is what pointed him to the grass in the first place) is somehow "not" Vettel's fault :rolleyes:
     
  9. werewolf

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    Well, Hamilton was alongside ... between Vettel and the wall.
     
  10. P.Singhof

    P.Singhof F1 Rookie

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    No, Lewis is not requested to avoid him, he can go for it but when it does not work out it does not work out..ask Ricciardo

    Why did Seb not simply drive faster to get 5 sec ahead? Obviously because he could not.. at this stage the Mercedes on hard tires was simply the faster car. Both he and Lewis were flat out or why do you think Seb lost it and Lewis had several lock ups?

    Why would Seb let Lewis pass? Seb did not gain advantage with the off and Lewis was not in front, so why giving him something he never had?

    Why do you think Lewis could have overtaken if he did not just stayed within 5 sec? He could not before and nothing changed afterwards. Both cars were nearly the same speed and neither Seb could pull away nore was Lewis able to get close enough to ride an attack

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  11. furoni

    furoni F1 Veteran

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    Whatever is writen, the spirit of the rules is this, " a driver cannot cut a corner in order to avoid being overtaken", it's as simple as that...Elton was never in a position to attack vettel, he was too afr behind, Seb lost control, cut the corner and rejoined complitely ahead of elton's car, so there is nothing trhat says he must give the place back, it hehad cut the corner in order to prevent elton to overtake him, that would have been another story, but that is not the case. As for rejoining the track, he did it in the same position he left, in the lead, and since he was ahead he had every right to chose his racing line, same as Elton had the chance to back of and try to overtake him on the inside, it was elton that decided to squeeze between seb and the wall, and not Seb that pushed him against the wall, this is a total farse and everyone knows that thsi outcome was only due to the fact that a mercedes and Elton where involved, as shown here already, there where several incidents before involving Mercedes with similar or much more dangerous and premeditated actions and they where never sanctioned by it. Against, this was a total farse.
     
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  12. csmjr91090

    csmjr91090 Rookie

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    Hamilton had good pace towards the end and it’s doubtful Seb could have gapped a 5 second lead on him, even with the engine turned all the way up (which it already was).

    What we were robbed of was a good finish either way. The Mercedes is superior in the corners, but Ferrari have a significant advantage on the straights. Not sure if they had switched places to avoid a penalty if Seb could have overtaken Lewis, but it would have been exciting. And now we’ll never know.

    The appeal will not be successful, IMO.


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  13. P.Singhof

    P.Singhof F1 Rookie

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    When? Show evidence

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  14. furoni

    furoni F1 Veteran

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    he was never alongside, Seb rejoined totaly ahead of Elton's car.
     
  15. Jack-the-lad

    Jack-the-lad Three Time F1 World Champ
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    It's also Mario Andretti's view. I'll take that over the anonymous internet experts, although they are certainly entitled to their opinions.
     
  16. werewolf

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    Nope.

    Sporting regs define "alongside" as: front wing even with rear wheels (at least). In this case, Hamilton's front tire was ahead of Vettel's rear tire ... easily satisfying the definition of "alongside".
     
  17. furoni

    furoni F1 Veteran

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    No, it was not, not when Seb re-entered the track..only much later..
     
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  18. werewolf

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    Andretti says that it's not the driver's fault, if he loses traction at the rear (forcing him into the grass)?

    Please show me that quote !!!
     
  19. pilotoCS

    pilotoCS Formula Junior
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    I've been reading about the appeal process and the only thing that seems to have any weight would be "new evidence." So Ferrari would have to come up with something that hasn't already been seen. That seems highly unlikely . . . . Good luck though.
     
  20. furoni

    furoni F1 Veteran

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    This pic is at a time when Seb had already re-entered and only then was the merc fron tire alongside the Ferrari, it's easy to understand that a moment befor, he was fully behind..
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  21. werewolf

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    Hamilton was alongside, by the time Vettel reach the right-side of the track.
     
  22. csmjr91090

    csmjr91090 Rookie

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    I’m not sure you really grasp the mechanics of racing here. That’s understandable. It’s not easy stuff, but there’s no need to keep flip-flopping your opinion to validate your conclusion.

    I’ll say it one more time. Vettel caught oversteer. He tried to counter. Once he did, the rear stepped out. He then slid into the grass. All of this was out of his control. His only option was to get back on the racing line because 1) he was still leading and entitled to it and 2) it was the only safe option. The Stewards made the wrong call.

    Even if we concede that Vettel made the smallest of errors here, it’s absurd to think he should be penalized for it. If that’s what Formula One has become, it won’t have a long shelf life.


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  23. Jack-the-lad

    Jack-the-lad Three Time F1 World Champ
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    His opinion of the incident is in a tweet upthread,
     
  24. werewolf

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    In this picture, Hamilton is already "alongside" ... according to the definition in the sporting regs.
     
  25. P.Singhof

    P.Singhof F1 Rookie

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    Seb was penalized for "unsafe re-entering", who cares where the two cars were 30 minutes later???? When re-entering the track Lewis was nowhere near...

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