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"Vettel Could Have Done Nothing Different"

Discussion in 'F1' started by aaronrgonz, Jun 11, 2019.

  1. I'm 360 Canuck

    I'm 360 Canuck Formula 3

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    I think that’s the crux of the matter...so I’ll ask the others a question...if for example, Vettel COMPLETELY lost control, perhaps sliding sideways or even backwards and ended up in the same position near Ham, would he be given the same penalty of an unsafe entry?

    The difference is, of course, intent.
     
  2. crinoid

    crinoid F1 Veteran
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  3. daytona355

    daytona355 F1 World Champ

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    And the fix is in......FFS Anyone that says the FIA isn’t Elton’s nanny is clearly misguided given this, just the latest of the clear and unchecked bias of the FIA. As long as they understand that every one of these stupid decisions is another nail in the f1 coffin, and there aren’t that many left to pin down on that lid at the moment
     
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  4. werewolf

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    Since many of these threads have ventured into the land of the hypothetical, here's mine ...

    Let's say everything happened as it did ... Vettel loses control, puts his car in the grass, and re-joins out-of-control (just as he said he did) ... but in this scenario, he slides across and not only pushes Hamilton fully off track, but actually makes contact with Hamilton. Hamilton's car is damaged as a result, and limps back home to the pits. Vettel goes on to win the race.

    Would the claim still be that Vettel did nothing wrong, and it was all Hamilton's fault for putting himself in harm's way?
     
  5. Kiwi Nick

    Kiwi Nick Formula 3

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    Is F1 hellbent on having the championship decided by the British GP?
     
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  6. daytona355

    daytona355 F1 World Champ

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    If Vettel hadn’t the skill to save the car before hitting the tool, then absolutely could be in for a penalty for affecting someone else race. However, it’s pie in the sky, he didn’t hit him, he rescued it, so it was just a great save, and a racing incident, no penalty required.

    What then if Vettel saved it, Elton cut across from the right to the left, and caught Vettel, spinning Vettel around, presumably you’d say no penalty as it was sebs fault for being in the lead? FFS, this thread!
     
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  7. Kiwi Nick

    Kiwi Nick Formula 3

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    Why can't the FIA/F1 just let them race? Reason: The FIA and F1 are rules making bodies...no rules, no reason to exist. Rules, rules, rules...that's the name of the game. So long as these nannies exist, F1 will be governed by people whose raison d'etre is to "govern" the sport and thereby govern the results. Pardon me, but this is a European thing. The winners need to be determined by a governing body, not the competitors. It's only fair!
     
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  8. werewolf

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    As i've said ... i'm not the first one entering the realm of the hypothetical ;)

    I think any driver would agree that you don't have to hit someone, to gain an advantage. An illegal block, for example, forcing an alongside driver to brake and drive completely off-track to avoid a collision ... this would definitely gain you an advantage!

    But back to the point: If Vettel's out-of-control rejoin had resulted in a collision ... why wouldn't everyone defend Vettel as the mere passenger, not at all responsible, while blaming Hamilton for not taking a better line to pass? In other words, all of the pro-Vettel and anti-Hamilton arguments would still apply in this hypothetical scenario, right?
     
  9. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Tell me oh wise one, would you agree this is alongside? Please explain to me why this didn't deserve a penalty?
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
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  10. werewolf

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    #110 werewolf, Jun 16, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
    Sporting regs are clear : front-wing next to rear-wheel is all that's required, to satisfy "alongside". Please quote the sporting regs themselves, if i'm wrong!

    (I don't agree with this rule, by the way, because it puts too much responsibility on the lead car, and too little on the following car ... so i'd be happy to be proven wrong ... but rules are rules)

    EDIT: regarding Monaco 2016 (your clip, i think), where's the official track boundary? The wall, or a white line? Did Hamilton leave a car's width between himself and the track boundary?
     
  11. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

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    In the olden days, when you could change the motor every session, unlimited testing,...::
    IF a car got into an accident the only penalty was not finishing.

    Now if someone takes you out and damages your transmission and engine components, YOU get charged by the 3-engine rules being imposed and EAT grid penalties--when it was not your fault. So the stewards HAVE to run a tighter ship, or the RULES become unfair.
     
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  12. daytona355

    daytona355 F1 World Champ

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    If Elton had hit Vettel, then he would be at fault for not braking and avoiding a potential accident, as he was fully aware (as admitted by him in interviews) that he had placed himself in a dangerous position. If Vettel had slid across into him, then it’s an ACCIDENT, and shouldn’t be punished anyway. I don’t get your point. I have one for you though - do you really think races should be decided on the track, or with a penalty even where no contact occurred and both drivers carried on without issue?

    Me, I prefer racing on a level playing field, and don’t see how saving the ferrari from the wall is a problem - in my racing days, not crashing was preferred at all times, it was cheaper to go racing if you didn’t destroy the car/motorcycle during races
     
  13. daytona355

    daytona355 F1 World Champ

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    What components is Elton changing as a result of Seb causing him to gently tap the brakes last weekend then? If that caused his engine, gearbox or other parts to fail, then I think Mercedes have bigger issues than Seb rejoining the track he hehehehehehehe
     
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  14. furoni

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    That's simple Grasshoper, because the leading driver was driving a Mercedes and is called "the Elton"
     
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  15. furoni

    furoni F1 Veteran

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    Of course, that would be a racing incident, nothing else...
     
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  16. daytona355

    daytona355 F1 World Champ

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    Exactly, he wouldn’t be so worshipped if they let people race him and beat him... I think the stewards are scared they will have to pay back their ‘expenses money’ and their free Mercedes cars if they rule against Mercedes
     
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  17. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Ah but then Hamilton would try to overtake Vettel off-track. Surely that's not within the rules.

    Schumacher left Barrichello a ****s hair width also and he got penalized. So why not Hamilton?

    If the rules are what the rules are, fine, but then I do expect everyone to be penalized equally and not the way it is now.
     
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  18. werewolf

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    So ... if Vettel loses control, goes into the grass, re-joins unsafely, hits Hamilton, Hamilton limps back to the pits, Vettel goes on to win ... no penalty for Vettel. Got it!

    You've answered my question :) so i'll answer yours: YES, i disagree. Sometimes, I think, penalties are warranted even when there are NO collisions. Examples include: false starts (with no collisions), illegal blocks (with no collisions), disobeying the rules about tire usage (with no collisions), unsafe release in pit lane (with no collisions), driving off-track to gain an advantage (with no collisions), etc etc. We'll just have to disagree on these points.
    In my racing days, illegal blocks (pushing other cars off-track) were frowned upon ... and "But, i didn't have control of the car!" wasn't a good excuse :(

    something about the importance of a driver being in control of his car at all times ...
     
  19. furoni

    furoni F1 Veteran

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    Not even the best driver in the universe is in control of his car at all times, not when he loses it, and not even Gilles, who had a talent far beyond anyone else kept his car under control all times, in fact he lost it plenty of times because he wanted to go faster and faster..that's called being a racing driver...
     
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  20. werewolf

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    So i can assume that we agree? In Monaco (2016), Hamilton left a car's width between himself and the track boundary (the wall, in Monaco) ... but in Canada (2019), Vettel did NOT leave a car's width between himself and the track boundary (the white line, in Canada). Therefore, consistent application of the rules :)

    And now, we're going back to a Schumacher/Barrichello incident ... ??

    My question for you: how many decades of racing incidents must we expect the current stewards to review, before they issue a penalty? And a follow-up, if i may: have the rules changed at all, in those decades?
     
  21. daytona355

    daytona355 F1 World Champ

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    Hehehe, love these Elton fans, always want to argue for penalties, unless of course, Elton is getting penalised. Maybe the Mercedes forums will be more in agreement with them..... wonder why ferrari forums on the whole think Mercedes cheat and get the benefit of the doubt while we get penalised.... is it because Mercedes drivers can park on circuits and push their car on live tracks, block and brake test, smash their teammates off while their teammate is in the lead, and yet never get a penalty?

    ****ing hell, is this really going to go on and on in some pointless circle with some trying so desperately to have someone, anyone, agree with him?
     
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  22. werewolf

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    #122 werewolf, Jun 17, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
    ^^^ and yet, by current count, four (4) people "liked" my first post in this thread :) On a Ferrari forum, no less !! Turns out, i don't have to look far at all, to find many people who agree with me.

    Imagine how cruel i would be, if i really were a Mercedes fan!

    My point: sometimes, being a Ferrari fan, means holding Ferrari accountable for their own mistakes.

    No matter, i'm out! The last words are for those other fans, who imagine Ferrari can do no wrong.
     
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  23. daytona355

    daytona355 F1 World Champ

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    Wow, four out of how many users? I wouldn’t be that impressed, I Regularly get a lot of likes (I’m on a long term average of 1 like for every two posts, and seeing as how I had 8000 posts before likes were allowed, that’s pretty good going) and yet I’m told I’m one of, if not the, most hated people on fchat (among Elton fans that is).

    I haven’t seen any ferrari tifosi happy to excuse issues for ferrari or its drivers at all, in fact, I am always amazed at the hard time given both by plenty of posters here who are tifosi.

    However, your one man crusade to justify a position the vast majority of knowledgable people in f1, including drivers past and present, plus team owners, strategists, commentators and the like, have categorically confirmed is a travesty, and has brought the sport into disrepute, would be admirable if warranted.

    The fact remains that in the one race where there was actually a true competition unmolested by reliability issues, the stewards took it upon themselves to impose a false result and remove any possible enjoyment or excitement for the entire race. They have demonstrated that things are not on a level playing field, that Mercedes truly continue to have the stewards in their pocket to protect their advantage, which has been stamped on the sport through the regulations since 2014, against even the most opportunistic win by any other team.

    That you are so convinced of Vettels guilt and requirement to punishment is of course your opinion to keep, and I wish you well in this. I don’t think it diminishes the opinions of the rest of the tifosi on this site, although it has undoubtedly won you some fans among the Elton brigade (I don’t think I’d like them following me around too closely though hehehe)
     
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  24. ATBNM3

    ATBNM3 Formula 3

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    Vettel cracked under pressure from Hamilton again... same for the last 18 races or so.
     
  25. daytona355

    daytona355 F1 World Champ

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    And there’s the rest of the entire world seeing him merely momentarily lose control for whatever reason (aerodynamic shift is the official internal Ferrari explanation) with Elton nowhere near him, and causing no pressure as he was incapable of passing. As if a car over a second behind, and slower on the straights, could influence a car ahead.
     
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