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VINTAGE A/C CONCOURS CORRECT Complete R-134a conversion ?

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by synchro, Aug 2, 2020.

  1. synchro

    synchro F1 Veteran

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    #1 synchro, Aug 2, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2020
    Has anyone produced a complete Air Conditioning retrofit kit to R-134a on the Daytona, C4 or others?
    Has the target price for parts been under $2500?
    I'm a retired hobbyist/Engineer and have done it for the Dino and have a lot of extra parts but wondered if other vintage YORK A/C systems are similar

    A lot of guys just swap the compressor then fill with fresh R-134a which is then doomed for failure as the smaller molecule size of R-134a more easily slips out of those old style Flare Seals.
    Nobody uses Flare Seals for A/C anymore. Nobody.

    By conversion, I mean removing every component in the gas flow path that has Flare Seals and replacing with parts having modern HNBR O-Rings so the system stays reliable and sealed just like your Honda does. Then we add a High Pressure Cutoff that is 80 PSI HIGHER than your current R-12 so that your system operates in the higher pressures that R-134a require to provide you with maximum cooling.

    Some parts for the Dino required custom manufacturing and pairing with an Industry Leader (ADEC - Arizona Desert Evaporators and Condensors) to make new evaporators and condensors
    I've successfully done this for the Dino and noticed the Daytona, C4 etc might be similar

    Any interest?

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/147366188/
     
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  2. TTR

    TTR F1 Rookie
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    #2 TTR, Aug 2, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2020
    Although I’ve never converted any to R-134a, I have (successfully) restored more than few OEM ‘50s to early ‘70s vintage car A/C systems.
    I’ve also developed few system improvements/upgrades on Daytona systems, but final R & D, including longevity proofing/testing, etc is still on-going and I’m (voluntarily) hung up on R-12.
     
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  3. synchro

    synchro F1 Veteran

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    #3 synchro, Aug 3, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
    Massive respect for dealing with R-12 vintage items.
    If the seals hold then it is actually an exceptionally good system ... except for the ozone. :)

    With the R-134a Conversion, I was able to take advantage of several modern advances in A/C and apply some Engineering principles of optimization. Then again, I'm a nutcase Dino owner so it goes with the obsession

    SEAL REDUCTION PROGRAM - One of my goals has been to reduce the total number of seals in the system and still make it concours correct.
    Fewer seals means fewer opportunities for failure leaks and I've eliminated 5 in the Dino system by using combination fittings and bipole sensors.
    As always, every seal now uses an HNBR O-Ring for Honda-like reliability.

    KEEP IT LAMINAR - A second goal has been to facilitate the refrigerant path by removing flow-robbing bends that ONLY ADD TURBULENCE
    Curved Hoses are BAD and steal your cooling ability.
    Ferrari OEM had one hose length for every production car - no exceptions, no consideration for fit or flow, slap it together at the fastest rate they ahad ever produced a car. Then all those flex hoses bent, impeding flow.

    I custom make each hose for the car to eliminate bends and retain laminar flow of the refrigerant. Refrigerant that races through your system unimpeded cools better and more efficently.
    Cooling forced through turns, twists and curves becomes turbulent with a possibility of Foaming, further robbing your cooling ability.


    Complete comparison replacement set below

    WHICH DO YOU WANT FOR YOUR REFRIGERANT?
    CURVED, TURNED AND TURBULENT.... OR STRAIGHT, FAST, CLEAN AND LAMINAR?

    [​IMG]
     
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  4. TTR

    TTR F1 Rookie
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    I assume you’ve researched the real reason behind R-12 ban & having been replaced with R-134a.

    Just out of curiosity, are you sure the hoses & their fittings depicted in your photo are acceptable to be considered “CONCOURS CORRECT” in a +/-50 year old car manufactured by Ferrari ?
    Probably won’t make a difference if they’re not visible to (knowledgeable) judge.
     
  5. synchro

    synchro F1 Veteran

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    #5 synchro, Aug 3, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
    You nailed it.
    I'm banking that Judges adhere to the rules and are not permitted to touch or move things, so those items like The Drier, which are hidden under the deck and behind splash panels will never be inspected.

    Where visible items such as the Compressor and Condensor are presented to judges, the correct exact reproductions are used as OEM and I've added the OEM tags "Aspera Frigo" and "DELCHI" along with the proper old style service caps over our modern fittings are used to provide authenticity for judging points.

    York has maintained the exact form and outside function of the compressors that I use in The Dino A/C System but they too have made improvements. Instead of the old, 0.6 cu ft displacement, I've selected their full 1.0 cu ft displacement - All in the same packaging as was in 1972 yet 40% more cfm
     
  6. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Rookie
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    Just one data point. I swapped over to r134. I was under a time constraint and didn’t swap any hoses. Used a new compressor and new drier. I did this in 2010 and have not had to add any additional r134.
     
  7. TTR

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    While I’ve never done the swap myself, but have heard similar accounts from few colleagues, including experienced A/C specialists and all seem to agree that only thing it affected was efficiency, which became noticeably(?) less than with R-12.
    I still remember the big boohoo and urgency about the reason for need to change that got accepted, hook, line and sinker.
     
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  8. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Rookie
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    True. It doesn’t cool as well as R12. There are things you can do to help. Just depends on how much you want to change the car. Many years ago I had a case of R12. I ended up moving and didn’t keep it. Talk about hindsight being 20/20.
     

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