Thank you Bob, for your constructive input.......
I've been hitting all around it and you summarized it bang on--thanks . OK, Now I got it. Eeh-VOILA! indeed. Sounds like a good idea to hold for future reference if the 14" tires don't work out. I spoke with Dave330gtc and he measured the circumference (around the middle of the tread) of his brand new, proper pressure 205VR14 (thanks Dave--is that the correct size designation?) XWXs and he got 85 inches minus maybe a sixteenth inch. They fill the wheel well properly on a GTC. That is key information. I'm going to be speaking with Bob Zambelli this week about lots of fun GTC stuff and will summarize here on this thread. Those 215 or 225 Comp T/As you & Bob mentioned or the P4000s Bob mentioned are lookin' mighty fine right about now. I will try those on my alloys and get a set of XWXs on the wires for show. But I primarily intend this car to be a lovingly and hard driven, well maintained, Used Often F-car. Get this, Bob has run his GTC on regular unleaded for the last ten years with no valve erosion or pinking--he looked at one of his heads to be sure. Maybe you're already aware of that. Man, 4 litres, 300hp, 7000rpm, 8.8:1, regular gas. il Commendatore and (I'm still not sure who designed the Tipo 209/66 (GTC) engine) Lampredi or Colombo sure got it right.....! Regards, Will PS I just thought I'd throw in this picture for a minor rush. The left cam cover was leaking pretty bad (though the damn engine was on fire when I warmed it up the first time--man!!), so I thought I'd learn how to check valve clearance/timing and ignition timing while I'm in there. Ooohhh yyyeeeaaahhh, the joy....
Will - since you have the valve cover off, check your valve adjusting screws - if they show ANY pitting, signs of abuse or aging, REPLACE THEM!! I had one break - that's why I had to remove the right head. Also, after adjustment, do not overtighten the locknuts. For some reason, when the screw broke on mine, it screwed in to where the valve crashed into the piston. It did not brake - just bent. I wound up replacing 4 valves at around $180.00 each, along with one guide. Also, replace the upper portion of the lathe-cut rings at the chain box/cam box interface. They routinely leak. To replace the lower portion, you have to remove the head or front cover. You really have an early engine (ask me how I know!!!). Bob Z.
From what I understand Michelin uses modern compounds in their vintage tires so they should perform much better than the original ones. I suspect that the XWX tires perform as well as the old car will anyway. Also, modern tires may put to much stress on the old suspension than it was designed to handle.
Sorry, I'm a bit pissed--just can't let this thread end--or even pause for long--on this note. If this gentleman had shown even a little thoughtfulness or apology in his posts, I wouldn't feel this way. To the other Listers I apologize in advance for the following pissed posting, but I need to say it. In the future, you might consider that before you post insulting comments about another lister and his intentions with his Ferrari, you should be sure you are not speaking from a podium of obvious, even a bit supercilious, ignorance. READ THE THREAD AND ENGAGE YOUR BRAIN BEFORE YOU FLAP YOUR FINGERS. And when you are called on it in a civil fashion (as bill365 did--thank you), you might just apologize, hard as that seems to be for you. So, Hear This--I AM NOT A CHEAP FERRARI OWNER. What I have been doing is trying to find modern high performance tires for my car. Is there so much blind, unquestioning Obedience to Purism now in the Ferrari world that talk of better tires (Whatever the price) for one's car equates to Cheapness? When did that happen? While to you my GTC is just an "old car", to me it is a cherished new possession that I am incredibly proud of. Keep your off-handed and thoughtless comments to yourself. It and the 275 torque tubes are the conceptual grandparents of the Maranello, having the same basic suspension and drivetrain layout as one of the highest performing new technology cars on the road today. It has a LOT of potential. As you said, What I am doing is continuing that thought logically on past "modern compounds Michelins". I feel that there is PLENTY of increased performance to be had from a GTC with modern tires. That dogma has been circulating for a long time. Where's the beef? I have not heard of a single 60s (and on) street Ferrari that had a suspension failure due to using modern tires. And I believe strongly that there are 100s, perhaps 1000s of vintage Ferraris being run hard on modern tires out there, and have been for many years. Do you have facts to back up your (in my thinking) unfounded blather about old suspensions? If that IS the case in real world experience, then I stand corrected. There is presently a case where the gentleman has been running hard on modern tires with his "old car" GTC for many years with no problems. And I'm sure a survey would find many more. It's sad if this post makes us unfriendly towards each other, but I still had to get it off my chest. Hope everybody (including you) has a good holiday season. Will
parkerfe, I do agree wholeheartedly with Wills, in that you have assaulted him personally and maybe you should just apologize instead of trying to protect yourself in an absolutely indefensible position. Since your unfounded, insulting, assertions regarding Will were proven wrong, you have made no effort in conciliation, in fact you haven't even revisited the issue, you merely change the subject and make a few more obviously baseless statements. Do you have a aversion to admitting you have made an error in judgement or action? I do feel that you should at least post a retraction. Come on man... be big about it. Best regards and a happy holiday, Bill
Come on guys, are you that skin thinned ? I never meant to insult anyone. But, after being a Ferrari owner for more than a decade now, I have seen too many Ferraris that have been butchered by their owners all in the name of more performance. Of course you can modify and add aftermarket parts to a car and make it perform better whether it be a Honda or a vintage Ferrari. A lot of people do just that. Even though I have not shown one of my Ferraris in an FCA concours in years, I still like to keep them as original as possible for myself. The "slippery slope" of modifications often end up leaving you with a different car than you bought. I am of the opinion that if you really don't like the way your Ferrari road car performs, then maybe you need to upgrade to another Ferrari, buy a racing Ferrari or a race car of another marque. After all, why did you want to buy the Ferrari you want to now modify in the first place ? Was it for looks only ? Or, was the entire compliment of Italian design/engineering, looks, sound along with all the quirks also factors ? If so, as it was for me, then just what part do you now not like and want to change. How many people do you think bought and modified their Ford Mustang GT500, or Corvette LS7 or 250GTO or other now classic now wish not only that they still had them but wished they would have never modified them in the first place ? Putting a small block Chevy engine in a old 60s era Ferrari or Jag or American big block supercar was once very common. The original engines got lost over time and that is why you see a lot of those old cars now with non-matching engines out of 250GTEs and other less valuable cars. There is now a cottage industry out there that buys these old modified classics, tries to locate and reinstall their matching engines, transmissions and other parts to butchered cars of the past, then restore them and sell them for a handsome profit. So, I suppose your modifications of today are creating restoration opportunities of tomorrow. As I see it, one of the greatest benefits of FC is to obtain the opinion of others, whether you agree or not, when making decisions on the location, purchase, restoration, parts location ,repair and maintenance of Ferraris. FYI, my opinion is to thrive to keep them as original as possible .
Frank Once again you are wrong. Not only can 60's suspention hold up to modern tires it can hold up to much wider wheels and modern tires. Two of the 4 P4's existant were converted into CanAm racecars. The wheels went from 8f 11r to 11f 15r. The suspension remained the same.
the only weak link I've heard about (as a result of new tech rubber) is the occassional old Borrani that gives up the ghost under hard cornering - no suspension issues
Parkerfe, We just got back from a great Christmas Holiday and your latest posting was a hoot to read. Awesome, Parkerfe, just wonderful--congratulations, loved it. That was one of the finest examples of a self-righteous, self-serving, utterly unfocused mini-diatribe that I've ever witnessed. Now,--try and Focus, OK?--: the subject of this thread is TIRES, man, TIRES--what is a good modern tire that will work on a GTC. Got It? OK, Are You Still Focused?--I know it's hard...... 1) the very thought of putting a small block Chevy in any Ferrari makes my skin crawl; 2) this car will never need the services of the (very laudable) reuniting cottage industry you mention; 3) we are all as fully aware of the slippery slope as you are-- you're wasting your breath preaching to the choir here; 4) you have said nothing new or ground-breaking here, you are merely diverting the subject off-thread. I do and have always understood your rightly passionate feelings about origionality. OK, you only need to remain focused a LITTLE while longer, because here comes the point one more time that I've been trying to make to you ever since you first entered this thread. OK, here it is,--Parkerfe, Focus Now,---- Whenever You Make a Post, Your Opinion is Always Welcome. But Keep the Ignorant Personal Attacks Out of it. Not Funny or Provocative In a Good Way, Just Small. Find Out At Least a Little Bit About the Person and the Thread Before You Flap Your Trap. That way you save yourself the embarrassment of showing your own ignorance. There, that wasn't too hard, was it?.......Good Boy, (pat on head). Just read BobZ's thread. Uhuh, now I get it. Troll and general troublemaker, that's you, eh--so no real reason to be pissed. Jeessh, you need something to occupy your time more fully, you have too much of it. Bet you're retired. Are there some nice Volunteer Groups in your town? Salvation Army perhaps? Soup Line Ladlers? Now, on with the hunt for a good handling, modern tire that properly fits the GTC wheel well, if there is such a critter. Y'know, since you mention it, I wonder just how much faster a GTC would be with an NOSed Chev small block, built TH400, a big "Ferrari" decal spread across the windshield, maybe even a big horse decal on the bonnet, shiny chrome mags with Big Slicks, a boot-mounted rear wing spoiler, and a big Honda single exhaust tube sticking out the back, hmmmmm......wow. ;^}
Frank, In your original post to this thread, you preached the following ... "Again, if you can't afford tp<sic> maintain a Ferrari in OEM condition, then you can't afford to own a Ferrari." First of all, that is not the issue. Second, that IS an insult posted to a public forum. Or maybe you choose to call it just another one of your "statements". Then, you also informed us of the following... "Once you buy a set you probably won't need to replace them for a decade or so." In this, you have clearly demonstrated that you haven't a clue what handling is about, and might be looking a little wiser, at this point, if you had simply chosen to refrain from posting to this thread. You have now inferred that when we embark on your so called "slippery slope" of modification, by replacing the XWX's with better tires, that we will now be addicted to continually modifying/butchering our vintage cars, to the extent that we are uncontrollably dropping chevy motors in them. Hell, why haven't you suggested a Dyer blown Keith Black 600+ cubic inch Hemi rat motor, tubbed out wheel wells, a chopped Strange rear axle and two Lenco 2 speed crash boxes in series to go autocrossing with? You might as well, it's just as reasonable as your other hyptoheses. I am surprised, that your opinion regarding the replacment the XWX's with new XWX's IS maintaining the car's originality, after all these are reproductions not originals. As you have also shared with us, "And, it is my understanding that Michelin uses modern rubber compounds in the vintage tire they make". I can't imagine why you wouldn't subsequently believe that this would not put an excessive loading on those poor little old fragile Ferrari suspension components, besides being non-original. Regards and Happy New Year, Bill (8->}
A person I've found very knowledgable about tires is Roger Krauss of Roger Krauss racing. He can also shave and hand cut tread patterns. He is very good at coming up with sizes that will work. He carries many brands of DOT and racing tires. Very cool shot of your valves. Best
Hey Napolis, Yeh, it's a good thing I took the cam cover off. The valve adjuster screws are starting to go sideways on me. Thanks for the tire tip. Someone's finally on the subject..... I did a Google on Roger Krauss Racing, no luck. Got any contact info? Best, Will
Will, Jim has a point, I just ordered 149 mph speed rated tubes w/metal stems for my Borranis, from Kraus (the only place I found for them so far). They specialize in vintage racing tires and accessories, they're good and prompt. Regards, Bill
Jim & Bill, Thanks for the tips. I'll talk to RKR Monday and get back with an update. I'll mention both of you to him. Regards, Will
Jim & Bill, I phoned RKR. Roger I guess was too busy to talk to me directly despite my mentioning Jim's name, so the best I could do was speak to him through an assistant. The assistant said that there was only the XWX. He wasn't interested in talking about 225/70s or 215/70s. They didn't seem very interested in helping. Oh well, sometimes it goes that way.... Will
There is a dim glimmer at the end of the tunnel provided by Tom Shaughnessey when I called him today. He said that Campagnolo made 275 competition wheels in both wire and alloy versions that were 15" with 32 hubs (15"x7" front, 15"x71/2" rear). Campagnolo said they might make another run of the wheels. Tom's going to look into it. I'll check back with him the end of this week. Will
Is it because the wheels will only take those tires? If that's the case I'd try talking to Campagnolo directly. They made me new P4 (350 Can Am) wheels 15x11f and 15x15r. but they weren't cheap. I think about 3K each. Also send Roger an email explaining the entire problem. Before you do PM it to me and I'll make sure he gets it. Best Jim PS I have a source in Italy that may have NOS wheels. PM me exact size you want. I'd also check with Ferrari UK Parts. They have a lot of wheels.
Jim, $12K for a set of alloys for a P4 makes all the sense, but not for a GTC. I'd still like to talk to Campagnolo about the wheel I need though. Maybe they have some miracle up their sleeves. Who do I contact at Campagnolo? Do you also know somebody helpful at Ferrari UK? Here's my best shot at explaining my problem and how far I've gotten in research. The wheel I need is an alloy with a 32 spline center, correct offsets (I don't know what they are) for a 330/365 GTC, and 15", or even 16" in diameter. The correct OEM origional 330/365 GTC alloy wheel I have now is a "7L x 14", which is stamped on the wheel and also listed as such in the GTC spare parts book. The hub is 32 spline. I believe they are Campagnolos. They have 10 square holes in them (see picture). I've looked and looked for a 15" wheel that fits a 330/365 GTC (i.e., 32 spline hub) and the only thing I could find was a set of Borrani wire wheels for a 275 GTB/C. They are a 15" wheel with a 32 spline center and have the same offsets as a GTC's 32 spline 7Lx14 alloy wheel, so they would fit. These 275 GTB/C Borranis were just under US$6,000.00 for a set of four--when they are available. I won't go that route because I come pretty close with a set of XWXs on my 14" Borrani wires (for show). For performance however, I want to get a set of 32 spline, 6"-to-7.5" x 15" (maybe 16"?) Alloy wheels, not wire wheels. I would fork out $6K for a set of those. But this appears to be a Very Tall Order. If I cannot find 32 spline x 15" or 16" wheels, then the best performance 14" tires (that are of the correct diameter for my OEM 7Lx14 Campy alloys--i.e., 780 revs/mile or 205/80/14 and fill the wheel wells properly) I could come up with were 225/70/14 Yokohama Avid S/Ts (786 revs/mile). They're about the best compromise I've found, almost the only one. The Kumho Touring A/S 215/75/14 is very close at 781 revs/mile, but it just isn't that good a performer. I have Pirelli P77 205/70/14s on the car now and it looks like it's on roller skates, but it handles well. I'm trying to have my cake by getting a good performance tire that also looks right in the wheel wells, again this appears to be a Very Tall Order. I'll get an email together for Roger and forward it to you, thanks. I'll try Ferrari UK as well. Best Regards, Will
I looked throught Roger's inventory and 14" are a real problem. I don't see anything you haven't mentioned. (I originally thought you were talking about 15") Campanello won't custom make wheels for less that that and I had to buy 2 sets. Jeff at Ferrari UK is a sponsor of this site and I'd give him a call. A set of Borani's for 6k is a good price but before I fit them I'd have them checked out. Best Best
Jim, Thanks for checking out Roger's inventory. The 32x15" Boranis are new in the bags. I will consider them further. I have an email in to Ferrari UK Jeff now explaining my problem(s). Thanks for the tip! Regards, Will To Jim, Bill, or Anyone, I have been calling these wheels "32 spline" hubs, after a Ferrari expert friend of mine told me a Campy rep told him that's what the 32 meant (i.e., 32 splines), but he's wrong. My Campy 40414 (330GTC OEM) alloys of 7L x 14 size have 66 splines and the hubs are about 57mm in diameter. What does the 32 mean? Same for 42 (Maserati)? Does anyone really know.....? Will
Hi Will, The 32 actually refers to the model series of the hub. For the F-cars there are the 32 and 40 series hubs. It does not refer to the diameter or the number of splines. The diameter of the hubs are actually in measured in inches with BSW threads (British Standard Whitworth). The actual diameters are 2 1/16 and 2 3/8. Regards, Bill
Bill, Thanks for the input. I understand that these hubs are also the "Rudge" design, again British in origin. A good table to look up Ruote Borrani numbers can be found at: http://www.tawvehicle.com/borrani1.htm#lamb Regards, Will
This thread has great info, funny also. Has anyone come up with more choices? Longstone tyres in the UK wants $400 each for 225/70/15 XWXs. The alternatives I've found are, BFG T/As they come in 70 series 225s.235s,255s 15inch and are very cheap in price, they do have the raised white lettering which you could shave off, Dunlop Gt Qualifiers are the same sizes also and even cheaper than the BFGs they also have the raised white letters.IMO these tires probably are far superior to the old XWXs and cost less than 1 XWX. Also found, Firestone Firehawk which is very similar to the XWX tread and a Yokohama Avis tire, both again have the raised white letters.Both seem superior in ratings to the BFG and Dunlop in surveys fwiw. Any opinions?
