Vintage section Fake/Replica/Recreation/Rebody discussion

People, People and Gods of both worlds! Prior to our ways of thinking, including the factory which seems to have as well forgotten!

FERRARI as well as BUGATTI and others built the cars around their creations. The engines – The frames – of FERRARI, ALFA,BUGATTI, MASSERSATI were all built by subs.
So is the frame the important component?
That being a creation of a sub?

It's not an original factory made item! Not machined, welded by Ferrari factory workers. So how can we think the frame which is in no way a product of the factory be the most important component?

I agree Ferrari held the patents. But Ferrari was not the manufacturer! In fact, not mentioning the chassis numbering on 2 occasions in the 1960-70s. I witnessed replacement chassis on race cars being replaced here in the United States. Shipped from Italy but not from the factory. But from the actual frame manufacturer?

Even today the factory in doing a classiche inspection calls upon the frame manufacturer for measurements. Specifications on the metal tubing for their analysis of that frame.

The manufacturer gives the final blessing to the frame NOT Ferrari Classiche.

So how can the value be in the frame? It was only a platform. Same as the great art of this world. Is it the canvas or that which was applied. The blues ,the reds and the signature is where the value lies.

Is it not a true recreation if it has all the components and signatures???

Did Drogo in building his GTO's go to jail.
Did Mr. Chinnetti Senior go to jail!

With his NART Series did Enzo ever say no don't do that? Those cars were all built around his engines and components. Ferrari did go, however after those who insulted the LOGO and NAME. Applying them to fiberglass Ferrari lookalikes with Datsun Platforms.

Many Ferrari's have lost their bodies. Is that not 50% of the car many have wrong engines is not that 25% of the car. A perfect Ferrari has had fools as owners. An owner who doesn't enjoy the noise the vibrations and the smells is like Napolis stated in his comparison of a beautiful girlfriend. Leave it for the next guy. Foolish ******t!

So if you have a complete driveline of original components is that not 50% of the car! Some of the recreations run modified factory chassis so they are at 75% of original components.

A fake replica or kit car can not be in any Ferrari Chat!
I'd love to see the Ferrari vintage series run again. What's wrong with recreations running as long as they are done to spec. a lot more fun to watch than a bunch of new cars that all look alike.

The Ferrari Chat is for enthusiasts and to be an enthusiast you have got to have owned one and driven one, not just talk about what you think the Ferrari world should be. If you have never experienced or driven, a bare bones Ferrari race car or a sports racer in a rally or track event then you have missed a true orgasm!. It's like a hooker with a 25,000 wristwatch or one wearing a copy from sears.

Same experience as driving a cloned recreation with all the right parts is the same orgasm as the hooker with the cheaper watch. Same sounds, same excitement, same ending.

In reading Red lines car has been inspected by FIA! An official worldwide Organization and passed Race tech Inspections. So its not a fake.

Its been inspected to have all of its original Ferrari Factory components excluding frame and bodywork of course.
And many do not realize they prior classiche this organization was a major selling point of any race car or sports racer.

Is it not the sound we here at first that draws us to look!
And is not that the heart of every Ferrari. People put engines in their living rooms, offices and bedrooms.

Since 1964 I've never heard anyone doing that with a frame!

 

I think this has helped my put some personal opinions together, though again, I am so far from this realm that it is tough for me to relate.

You would not be able to "shame" me into feeling anything, because you'd probably never see me or the car. I don't own a Ferrari for anyone but me, and though I go on rallies some and drive the car to the occasional event, most of my driving is early in the morning on the weekend when no one is around. In fact, in my little town, I'd prefer no one even knew I owned it. One fantastic thing about a 365GTC4 (my personal vintage of choice) is that 99% of people wouldn't even know it's a Ferrari.

So let's say I bought a 250 GTE. Now I know many think the car is in itself a classic, and that's just dandy. But restoration of a car like this I imagine would be more expensive than the car is worth. Correct? So now, financially, in the current market, restoration vs. transformation into a "fake" GTO would be pouring money into a hole. For many people that is simply not an option. And to all BUT those who believe that destroying the original car is a crime, it's also just plain foolish. It is one of the reasons I don't own a GTC4 - I can afford to get the car home, I just wouldn't have anything left to take care of it, and the car would never be worth what I poured in.

Many here say destroying a vintage Ferrari is a heinous act. Well guess what: it's not your car, and it's not your money. Think GTE's should be kept as GTE's? Well start buying them up. You can be like the humane society for 2+2 Ferraris.

If I had the money to buy a GTE and convert it, I'd probably do it. Why? Because I think the EXPERIENCE to me would be superior to owning the 2+2. Is it a real GTO? Nope. Would I care? Nope. Would it sound like the real thing? Yup. Would it drive like the real thing? Certainly more so than the 2+2. Would it look better than the GTE (assuming it was done well...) actually, yes.

Would I misrepresent it as anything else? Nope. Would I care if you called me all sorts of names and cursed my existence for the way I manipulated a bunch of metal that is MINE? Nope. But you'd most likely never see me anyway.

Even more, you could actually DRIVE a converted, much less valuable car. It takes deep deep pockets to regularly run a GTO on the road; how much is insurance on a multimillion dollar car?

All that being said, to take one car, convert it to another and try to pass it off as original at a show, track event, race etc is criminal. Even trying to pass it off at the coffee shop is deplorable. It's lying, plain and simple. And if money begins to change hands, its fraud on a huge, federal-pound-me-in-the-a$$-prison scale. How someone could even consider that is beyond me.

Luckily for me, none of this is ever going to be debated anywhere except in my little melon. IF I were to ever have a legitimate reason to browse this, it would be for a GTC4. And to my warped brain they look BETTER than the Daytona, and by most accounts make a better driving road car as well. So no chance that I will frap around with what to me is already perfection on 4 wheels.

So in summary, doing whatever you want to do to your car is your business. So long as you don't try to pass it off as something it's not, I don't think anyone has a right to go medieval on someone for what they want to do with their stuff. Don't like it? Buy it and make it yours and then do what you want. Otherwise, your personal opinion is meaningless.

 

Will defer to the lawyers here, but I suspect the answer is that that's not necessarily true. Legal protection for design lapses at some point, depending on the country. I think it's fair to say most "Porsche 356 Speedsters" and "550 Spyders" are plastic fakes that are legal to produce and then (perhaps criminally) adorned with Porsche badges for the purpose of deceiving onlookers. It's likely that the design for the 250 GTO, 250 GTB SWB and others are also sufficiently old to be beyond legal protection.

That doesn't legitimize fakes, IMHO.

In other collectibles fields (coins, stamps, art, etc.), the penalty for creating a credible fake -- whatever the intent -- is potentially federal prison time. The collectible automobile field seems extremely lenient in comparison.

I'm sure the FChat powers that be will sort out the best approach for separating the fakes from the Ferraris in this forum.

 

As an honest car enthusiast, you would never misrepresent it at the time of sale (and presumably you would only sell it to honest buyers.) But, it is a visual deception to make a 250 GTE into something else.

Also you're correct that a 250 GTE is not a viable restoration project in 2012, but they aren't one of millions of used Corollas and it is a one way trip from "made by Ferrari while the Old Man was running the show" to "project car done by some owner in the U.S. who couldn't make the numbers add up to justify preserving it".

I guess ultimately it depends on whether you view it as a matter of custodianship or property rights. For historically important cars, I'm in the former camp. If I owned a 250 GTE, I would preserve/restore it. I've never in my life seen one on the road.

 

I think that's exactly making my point.

I'm not an expert. I was not aware of the exact provenance of that particular car, having read an article or two on it. But certainly that's possible, and if so, it's then a recreation? Replica? Fakey-do? Bitsa car? I dunno, guess it depends on your POV.

D

 

Jeez I'm sick of seeing this thread heading every time I look at FChat lately. The Vintage section is NOT a disgrace, it never was a disgrace. Why not title this thread "Proposed Changes in the Vintage Section" or something along those lines?

 

This thread is what FerrariChat is all about. A lively cast of characters providing insight, entertainment and argument about a common passion.

 

Dave

The Breadvan has nothing to do with Ferrari 250 GTO's. Nothing. It was once a SWB and the guy who owned it wanted to turn it into something different and he and some of the guys who had worked at Ferrari did. It raced in period as the Breadvan and Ferrari today recognizes it as a "Ferrari of Historical Interest".

The Breadvan is not a fake. It's not wearing a replica body. It's wearing a one off body and contains engineering not done by the factory but it's not a fake or replica.

There are many competition Ferrari's that Ferrari had little to do with. The Pensky/Donohue 512M is a good example. Read Mark's book and decide for yourself.

The engine in that car was built and highly modified by Traco in California not by Ferrari in
Modena.

The Ferrari Indy cars chassis was likely simply a Miller Indy Chassis.

The last Ferrari to finish first at Le Mans wasn't a factory car. It was highly modified by NART in Greenwich, Conn. I remember when it was on the lawn at Pebble. A Judge told Coco that the ignition wires weren't original. "Of course they're not the Ferrari ignition wires were crap. We used locally sourced ignition wires." He answered. The Judge also took points off because the gas gauge wasn't working. Coco was flabbergasted.

"At Le Mans you don't figure out when to come into the pits by looking at the gas gauge."

On your earlier post.

Ferrari P 4/5 by Pininfarina is officially recognized by Ferrari as a Ferrari. Ferrari P 4/5 by Pininfarina was NEVER entered in Cavallino so the idea that it was rejected by Cavallino is silly.

As for my P 3/4. The guy who was banned in that thread was banned for multiple personality posting not for arguing with me. As an aside years later he asked me if he could come back to FCHAT and I explained that I never had any control what so ever over FCHAT and he had to ask Ron. He did and he was allowed back by Ron.

 

I agree TOTALLY.

 

I agree, maybe the most relevant thread for the whole site. I disagree with the idea that discussions of these cars (fakes, reproductions, continuations, what ever you call them) should take place in some corner called "general automotive". This is a important topic
that should be addressed right up front right where everyone posts.

It's the constitution of ferrari, it should be debated right up front where the real cars are discussed. Hiding it in "general automotive" only promotes the problem.

 

congratulations, you just killed a real, vintage Ferrari. One of dwindling number of original Ferraris. Like I said earlier in this thread, just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

Have you ever driven a well-maintained GTE??

 

Do you mean Rob Lay? Not Ron or Frito?

Again, shortened for the sake of brevity. I think the P3/4 was the one I meant. Not the 4/5 which is sort of an Enzo rebody, with numerous tweaks, right? What category would you really put that one in? It's a one off, for sure, and a cool car, just not sure it's one for the lawn at Pebble Beach or Cavallino either.

The P3/4 debate got quite heated, which lead no doubt, to a personal attack, which then lead to a ban and the multiple personality disorder in an effort to continue the debate/abuse. I think that makes my point at least that we all remain cordial here. I recall he fancied himself something of a P3/4 historian, right? also had a replica P car, right? I just can't recall all the details, I may be a bit off base.

Jim, for most of us here this is the most interesting section of F-chat. Some here have a broad and deep knowledge of the cars, others (like myself) not so much. I learn here, everyday. That's why, as I indicated earlier, I have no problem with fakes being outed here, but do have a problem with non-Ferrari content, and replicas would certainly fall into that category in many instances, along with sponsor threads about Corvette restorations.

I think this is the PERFECT place to make fakes and counterfeit cars known, if from the vintage era.

 

there's one we can probably all agree upon.

Needs a name change. Hitting the "!" now, maybe Wax will take pity on it and give it a more fitting title.

D

 

Rob, I think if asked Julio would want the entire thread to disappear.

however, since it looks like it's gonna hang around for a while, and this sub-forum is anything but a disgrace, maybe a tweak of the title wouldn't hurt?

D

 

Ferrari P 4/5 by Pininfarina has been on the concept lawn at Pebble. It's also been at Villa d'Este where it Won First in class.

Some may find it interesting to note who was looking it over very closely and taking notes that day.

Ron/Rob my Bad.
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Mr. Todt was probably getting the SN at the request of Carbon.

 

My daughter who designed the seating material in Ferrari P 4/5 by Pininfarina thinks he was looking carefully at her design especially in light of how the 430 Scuderia seats were covered a while later...

 

Excellent photo Jim

Maybe he wants one himself ?

On topic, I for one would be happy for the thread to be renamed.

 

Jim, what class was it in at Villa d'Este?


Strong company, and a great level of recognition in both instances, but was it classified as a Ferrari at either show?

We're wandering a bit from the vintage concept, but I think the concept applies, so I'd be interested in the answers.

D

 

Prototype Class at Villa d'Este.


Of course it was a Ferrari at both shows. It had a Ferrari nose badge, shields, Cavallino, and script. I wanted only the nose badge but Ferrari and Pininfarina wanted the Shields, Cavallino, and script and I agreed. JT wasn't happy that I'd painted the shields and Cavallino and wanted me to use the enamel ones and a chrome Cavallino but I didn't cave on that. JT invited me to Bring Ferrari P 4/5 by Pininfarina to the factory after Villa d' Este and I did driving her from Como to Modena and back to Turino in one day. Ferrari took us to lunch and even picked up the check. Sal told me it was the only time in 40 years that he'd seen the factory pick up a lunch check.

As an aside The Breadvan has a Ferrari nose badge as well and has worn one from the day she was born. The Breadvan is also officially recognized by Ferrari.
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I admit it.

I was wrong, and this thread has shown me the light. I feel I should now come forward and throw myself at your mercy.

I constructed a fake. A replica. A forgery. A blasphemous pile of crap, or whatever you may want to call it. It even has fake shields. Sticker shields, at that.

Ban me if you must, or feel free to scream at me in public and make me run off with my tail between my legs.
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Is anyone working on a 1/18 version of the fabulous p4/5 road version???


Gary
Espada
8394

 

Nathan, Are you sure both of the kids are authentic, never had any body damage, needed new tyres or a restoration and are entirely as they left the shop, in fact dont even change their clothes, because you just know they will get marked down at FCA/ Cavallino/ Pebble as being non - original, and you will only get 99.5.

Oh, you are referring to the Ride - on ............................... My bad