water pump 355

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by panterasteve, Oct 22, 2006.

  1. panterasteve

    panterasteve Formula Junior

    May 4, 2005
    479
    huddersfield
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    steve b
    advice needed please .ive got some excess play in my water pump which maybe the cause of a whurring noise related to engine speed,is this engine out job or can it be done in situ,the pump is this worth the rebuild kits that i think ferrari do or should i just replace the whole pump.pump has done only 30,000 miles is this normal or just bad luck,
     
  2. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Moderator
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    Dec 10, 2005
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    Mount Isa, Australia
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    Hello Steve. How do you know you have some 'excess play' in your waterpump if the engine is still in the car? Is it a bearing(whirring) noise you can hear? It could possibly be your cam belt tensioner bearings, alternator bearings or A/C clutch bearings also mate. Maybe even your waterpump bearing, yes. All whirring noises that are RPM related are usually a bearing on its way out. I still dont know how you know its your waterpump. :) Can you please explain some more please. Ricambi America sells waterpumps. 30,000 miles is good mileage out your waterpump. Has your 355 ever had a major service that you know of? Every 3 years or 30,000miles the cam belt is due. The waterpump usually gets replaced when the engine is out for that service. :)
     
  3. panterasteve

    panterasteve Formula Junior

    May 4, 2005
    479
    huddersfield
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    steve b

    hello pap
    engine is stiill in i just removed all the drive belts, alt,ac and adj tensioner bearings are all fine.i can just manage to ge both hands and feel pump pulley ,theres about 1mm of play in it,when you rotate by hand it doesnt feel rough but does squeek although its very tight in there and difficult to turn .cam belts were done last year and i was told cam bearings were ok,but ive done 6500 miles since then.ive run the engine and fairly sure theres no whurrin noises ,but ive got decat and with all the other engine noises im not 100% sure .cheers mate
     
  4. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Moderator
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    Dec 10, 2005
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    Ok, so you have removed all the ancilleries and there is no whirring noise now?? Then that rules out the waterpump then doesnt it? But.......it squeeks? Strange. They didnt replace the waterpump last year then I can assume when they did the cam belts? 1mm of play........hard to tell mate. Best to remove the pump and inspect to make sure that its 100%. Or just replace it while its out. And the cam/tensioner bearings too. ;)
     
  5. panterasteve

    panterasteve Formula Junior

    May 4, 2005
    479
    huddersfield
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    steve b
    mate the water pump is driven off one of the aux belts not the cam belt,just trying to see if i have to take engine out to do pump as if i have to i will defo do belts again prob tensioners,t/stat and gaskets and a clean up of the engine,i know it will turn into big costly job which i want to avoid if i can,but once the engines out i be stupid not to do these jobs. i bought the car of a specilist and part of the deal was to belts only,i guess with hindsight i should have told them to do anything else that needed doin too with cambelt job then but not to worry.
     
  6. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Moderator
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    Dec 10, 2005
    83,847
    Mount Isa, Australia
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    Pap

    I know mate. ;) What im getting at is......it would be best to remove the engine and inspect/replace the waterpump and then replace cam belt tensioners ect....Exactly as you have mentioned. ;) If they were not replaced last year, then I would pull the engine and replace them. Hard work making them last another 20,000 miles or so till next major service. At least you drive your car also. 6500 miles per year is healthy for the car. :)
     
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  8. No Doubt

    No Doubt Five Time F1 World Champ
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    May 21, 2005
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    Bad news. It's shot, sadly. All that you do to inspect a water pump is rotate it (any squeal/hesitation?), yank on the pulley (any non-rotational movement?), and look at the weep hole on the bottom (is it wet?).

    Yes to any one of the above means rebuild/replace (including the bearings, but the Ferrari waterpump rebuild kit does not include bearings).

    You found 1mm non-rotational play and you heard a squeak...so it's new bearings time no two ways about it.

    Good news: this man will rebuild it (including new bearings) for $80: Mr Dick Jordan, 7105 Fountainbleau Road, Ocean Springs, MS. 39564 (228) 872-0855
     
  9. Ricambi America

    Ricambi America F1 World Champ
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    ^^ A new F355 bearing for $80? Have you confirmed this?
     
  10. No Doubt

    No Doubt Five Time F1 World Champ
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    No. It is not confirmed.
     
  11. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    Sep 18, 2002
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    You can do it in the car..pain in the butt, but it can be done. I have yet to see a bad bearing in the 355 water pump however...
     
  12. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2004
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    Three 355's with bad water pump bearings this summer. Found durning the major service to be loose with slight play in the shaft.

    Can be done in the car but I wouldnt. Too much debris can fall into the belts to feel good about it.

    $80 for a rebuild? Run, dont walk. Daniel is right in questioning that one. Is Ferrari selling that bearing yet? Daniel, post the parts cost alone for a 355 pump. The seal has to be in the $75-80 range isnt it?

    Dave
     
  13. Ricambi America

    Ricambi America F1 World Champ
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    The bearing is $650+

    The seal isn't too bad @ $35

    An entirely new pump is $1300+

    (By the way, the 360 uses the same bearing and seal, IIRK)
     
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  15. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Lots of low bidder waterpumps out there. Entire units that cost less by large amounts than just the rebuild parts. Kinda makes you wonder how good they can be. Scary thought on a 348.



    Have to remember, the thing that kills so many Ferrari waterpumps in 348,355,550,456, is the fact that with the design of their belt drive systems in conjunction with the fact that the motors spin up so fast they need belt tensions that would bring most waterpump bearings to their knees. Not all waterpump bearings are created equal.
     
  16. No Doubt

    No Doubt Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Oh, it's not that frightening. I'm running my 348 on one of those low bid waterpumps right now, and have been for most of this year. No problems (and there likely won't be).

    I've also rebuilt a couple of diesel motor waterpumps for an ocean-going sailboat (salt water is a pretty harsh environment), and seen firsthand that even $16 bearings can take quite a bit of punishment.

    We're really at the mature stage of global Industrialization. Presuming that you don't buy some cheapo Chinese bearing from a firm that just started making them last week, you're pretty well getting similar quality from all of the remaining major bearing producers. It's 19th, sometimes 20th, century manufacturing science...hardly the stuff of alchemists and one-off artisans making or breaking the difference in quality. Heck, some Russian bearings are still holding up in former Soviet tanks!
     
  17. panterasteve

    panterasteve Formula Junior

    May 4, 2005
    479
    huddersfield
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    steve b
    being quoted £420 less 15% from marrenello for pump which is a lot for a pump that probably costs a fraction to make.looking like winter project now .do it properly engine out ,cam bearings,t/stat and engine clean up.is there anything else worth changing at the same time?looks like i need to make early xmas list.
     
  18. Ricard

    Ricard Formula Junior

    Jan 23, 2004
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    Richard C
  19. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2004
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    When the mention of Russian tanks and diesel engines works into a Ferrari thread.... I simply cant add anything constructive. Im at a loss for words.

    Dave
     
  20. No Doubt

    No Doubt Five Time F1 World Champ
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    And your price at Ricambia is going to be at a discount from Ferrari dealerships, I'd wager, as you're a decent bloke...

    but

    That water pump bearing (for 355 and 360) is Ferrari part #143742.

    I'd bet a round of drinks on me to everyone on this thread that given the SKF part number for that bearing, that I can find the exact same part on-line for less than $200 (and I'm not talking about just $199.99, either).

    Same part.

    Any takers (I doubt that anyone has the stones to give me the part # and take me up on the bet, by the way, but here's a shot to step up to the plate)?


    There is a whole myth about "pricing" as if paying more for the self-same part somehow gives you more reliability.

    In reality, you're just getting different packaging. One poster moaned about an $80 rebuild for the 348 waterpump, for instance, as if price alone could determine low quality. Bah. Look up the Dino's water pump bearing some time (vastly different price for the same bearing based on getting it from Ferrari Dealerships versus aftermarket).

    Well, the drill press doesn't care if your SKF bearing came in a pretty yellow Ferrari box, a blue Maserati box, or a white SKF box, nor does your waterpump care.

    It's the same bearing.

    So my challenge is open to the posters who pretend that disaster looms for anyone with a discounted waterpump/bearing.



    Not that I'm expecting any of the FUDDERS (IBM's industry term for using Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt about competition to reliably win sales from customers) to step up to the plate, mind you, but here is their chance to get me to admit defeat in black and white as well as buy a round of drinks.


    ...I'm waiting...
     
  21. 285ferrari

    285ferrari F1 World Champ
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    I'm not taking this bet!!!
     
  22. No Doubt

    No Doubt Five Time F1 World Champ
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  23. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Moderator
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    Dec 10, 2005
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    Mount Isa, Australia
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    Now that you mention it ND. I saw a gearbox bearing for a Ferrari for sale on Ebay late last year. It didnt mention what gearbox it was from. But it was a sealed bearing, in an SKF box, inside a genuine Ferrari parts box. This bearing was US$199. Im sure that was cheap, being on ebay. One can only assume. Anyways, this ebayer was kind enough to tell you the SKF bearing part number. :p I called our local SKF dealer here. He could get me the same SKF bearing for AU$35 or $45 I forget now!!!!!! I had a hearty chuckle at that. :)
     
  24. No Doubt

    No Doubt Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Pretty cool, mate!
     
  25. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Moderator
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    I should have just bought the bearing for toughness reasons. :p:p
     
  26. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Dont be such an ass. No one says sourcing many parts from outside sources is a bad idea. Another figment of your dumb ass imagination. If you weren't such an obvious source of flawed information I would be worried but as it is anyone who pays you a great deal of serious attention deserves what they get.
     
  27. No Doubt

    No Doubt Five Time F1 World Champ
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    I'm willing to post links, pics, whatever to support what I say. If you see flawed information, quote me, and I'll either correct the flawed information or else post 3rd party support confirming whatever it is that you've quoted.

    I'm quite fair about this.

    I also use my own advice. I've got the discounted eBay waterpump in my 348, for instance, that you and Dave Helms have cautioned about...and neither of you had a problem with Ricambi charging $650 for the bearing alone for the waterpump in this thread...

    ...yet now when I point out that the **same** bearing can be purchased for less than $200, suddenly you have less of a problem and offer less caution for such outsourcing.


    Well, neither of you should have criticized the discounted waterpump in the first place if you were only going to back down when alternative parts source acquisitions were posted.


    Or just forget all of this thread except this one thing: you can get the same Ferrari part, especially bearings, for a lot less than what Ferrari wants to charge.

    And the older posters on Fchat are doing the lurkers and newbies a disservice when they don't speak up about $650 bearings.

    Bearings!

    Ferrari owners shouldn't be paying more than $200 for any 3rd party bearing on our cars, I'd expect...and Ferrari shops, if they aren't going to make such information public, should at least refrain from posting unwarranted Fear/Uncertainty/Doubt when some average Joe comes along to say that the same part can be purchased for less.

    It's not like I'm asking you to **use** the cheaper 3rd party sources for your shops; nor am I criticizing you for unduly charging for using Ferrari-boxed parts (liability alone makes it a different cost equation for a shop owner).

    But for the two of you to criticize or sow doubt for what I did, which was simply open a few eyes that even you had to belatedly admit was an always available option, is a bit unfair.
     

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