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water temp issue

Discussion in '308/328' started by 328turbo, Jun 16, 2009.

  1. 328turbo

    328turbo Formula Junior

    Jun 15, 2009
    306
    nyc
    i am new to this forum and my water temp issue is slightly different than others that i have read here.

    my car runs great with its temp gauge reading around 195 deg.. on cooler days, and at higher vehicle speeds it can drop down to around 165 deg..
    however, when my car is idling in traffic or at stoplights the temperature needle starts to climb. once i take off again, the temperature slowly goes back to normal.

    at this point i can only idle for only a couple of minutes before the gauge reads 225+ degrees.

    because the car cools down when the engine revs above 2500 rpm i am inclined to believe that it is not the water pump, but i may be wrong.
    both of the radiator fans are working.
    coolant level is full.

    the car is turbocharged and the turbo does generate quite a bit of heat, however the oil temperature gauge does not fluctuate(the turbo is close to the oil cooler) so i am also inclined to rule out extra heat from the turbo.

    any solutions from someone who has experienced similar problems would be greatly appreciated!!
     
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  3. tuttebenne

    tuttebenne F1 Rookie

    Mar 26, 2003
    3,005
    Bay Shore, NY
    Full Name:
    Andy
    If its not a matter of air in the system, I would go to the radiator. A clogged radiator will do exactly what you are describing.
     
  4. Lawrence Coppari

    Lawrence Coppari Formula 3

    Apr 29, 2002
    1,972
    Kingsport, TN
    Full Name:
    Lawrence A. Coppari
    I had a similar problem like the one you are having but with a turbocharged Porsche. I noticed that at low rpms under load the temperature would rise considerably, not into the 'red' range, but high enough to get my attention and beyond where it normally went under similar conditions. This began happening after I owned the car for maybe 5 years. At high rpms there was no problem with rising temperatures. At idle temperatures were ok once the electric fans came on.

    In my case it was the water pump. Evidently the clearances had opened up just enough to prevent sufficient pumping at low rpm, particularly under load. Water pump replacement cured the problem.

    Another thing you might do is measure the temperature of the air that each cooling fan is moving. An appreciable difference would indicate a clogged radiator. My 328 is vertical flow so each fan removes about the same amount of heat.
     
  5. miketuason

    miketuason F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Feb 24, 2006
    14,306
    Cerritos, CA.
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    Mike
    See if the rad fan is coming on, if not, check the temp fan switch on the lower right corner of the rad, check the fuse and the relay.
    To test, Connect the two wires from the rad temp switch together then switch the ignition to ON position and see if the fan turns on.
     
  6. irondogmike

    irondogmike Formula 3

    Sep 8, 2006
    2,170
    San Diego area
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    Michael Tucker
    when was the last time you bleed the system? I try to do it about every other time I take it out,there'is alot of hose's and pipe connected to the rad and the engine,alot of places for air to come in to the system,thats my thought:)
     
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  8. 328turbo

    328turbo Formula Junior

    Jun 15, 2009
    306
    nyc
    thanks for the great advice guys!!

    i plan on flushing the system and replacing the thermostat this weekend.
    in another post i read about the air bleed valves on the radiator and thermostat housing.
    is there any special procedure to flushing the system? any special products? will i need anything other than the thermostat and housing gasket?

    i checked out your profiles and you guys have some awesome vehicles! the 308 series is the best.
    how do i post a pic of my ride?!?!?!?!

    ....and Lawrence, turbo Porsches are incredible cars!!! air cooled Porsche/V-dubs are some of my favorites
     
  9. Lawrence Coppari

    Lawrence Coppari Formula 3

    Apr 29, 2002
    1,972
    Kingsport, TN
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    Lawrence A. Coppari
    Thanks 328turbo. The 944turbo has 176K miles on it and still runs really well. It's a pretty good track car. Bought it in 1996 with 89K, modified it, and have been tracking it ever since. K27, MAF, 16 psi boost, two oil coolers, 3 bar fuel, extrude honed intake, 2900 lbs, and modified oil pan/pickup.

    Good luck with your too hot problem. What boost do you run in the 328?
     
  10. 328turbo

    328turbo Formula Junior

    Jun 15, 2009
    306
    nyc
    #8 328turbo, Jun 18, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    i like when people are proud of their mileage, Lawrence. the 944 sounds like a fun ride!

    the Ferrari was built by Norwood in '94. i recently bought it off of a gentleman who pretty much kept it 'as-is' for many years. she is ONLY running about 8psi right now, very conservative. as you can tell by the pic, i am not intercooled -not yet!!!

    because i have never seen the egt's go past 900 degrees, i know i have room for plenty of more boost.
    i made an appointment with my local tuner to dyno this car and tune it for maximum street gas power next month.

    eventually i would like to go with bigger injectors, water-to-air intercooler, and a bigger turbo.
    this car is real fun, looks bone stock(except for a couple of well placed gauges -boost, and egt) and much faster than anyone would expect.
    i estimate 400hp @ the engine.
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  11. Lawrence Coppari

    Lawrence Coppari Formula 3

    Apr 29, 2002
    1,972
    Kingsport, TN
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    Nice looking engine/car. Have you ever measured the temperature of the charge after it leaves the turbocharger? You can get a decent estimate by making the assumption that it is an isentropic compression. The reason why I say this is because that is what frequently done for engineering computation. You will pick up a few extra degrees due to the temperature of the compressor being heated by the turbine section but not a lot. I go to a lot of DE events at Road Atlanta and instruct for a few car clubs. You encounter all kinds of cars and people. A few years ago a student of mine had a completely instrumented 944turbo. It had a computer in it where you could look at temperatures/pressures everywhere. The owner was an engineer whose specialty was instrumentation. Anyway, you could check the pressure and temperature coming out of the compressor section of the turbocharger. With a flick of the switch, you could get the temperature of the charge leaving the intercooler, which, incidentally, was doing a very good job dropping the temperature to near ambient at over 100 mph. The ambient temperature along with oil temperatures were also being measured.

    Needless to say all this interested me (spent my career in the area of thermal sciences). I had always wondered how close the isentropic calculations were to actuality. As it turned out, they were only off by a few degrees and the higher the boost, the less they were off. The charge will pick up some additional heat from the walls and rotor of the compressor but not much at high boost and high air flow. I later verified this by estimating the surface area of the rotor and compressor walls, assuming a film coefficient and airflow, and coming up with numbers. This particular turbocharger was water cooled.

    Isentropically, air that enters the compressor at 80 F, 14.7 psig leaves at 151 F with 8 psi boost. Lowering the temperature to near ambient will give you a nice bump in performance.
     
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  13. 328turbo

    328turbo Formula Junior

    Jun 15, 2009
    306
    nyc
    #10 328turbo, Jun 19, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    wow. sounds like your extracting every last ounce of power for any given temperature, Lawrence!

    being that i have never raced the car, i dont think i need to be so specific. but what is the most optimal fuel/air ratio you run?
    my turbo buicks seem to really like to be in the 11.75-12.25:1 area. but it is a low revving engine, 3.8L sfi turbo. i 'think' my injectors in the 328 are 24lb/hr, so i really wouldnt be able to push much more than 400hp.

    but back to the issue at hand.......
    Tuttebenne and Irondogmike are right on the money!!
    i bled the system this morning as per tha Birdman's instructions ( www.birdmanferrari.com -the internet is great).
    took the car out for about an hour and a half. highways, streets, and some legendary new york traffic. the temperature gauge never even hit 195deg.
    thanks guys.

    ive owned musclecars all my life, this is my first experience with a Ferrari. even though it is small and tight, it also seems geniusly simple!!!
    when it was overheating i have to admit i was in somewhat of a panic. i went to the dealer and he was telling me they diagnose cars from simplest problem(cheapest) to the most complex. but $275 for a $10 thermostat, man there aint nothing cheap about that!!!!
    add the labor and its enough to get me sick!!!

    Birdman's instructions took about a half hour and did not cost 1 red cent. not to mention the free smiles during the test drive!

    if anyone has ever used the 1980 VW rabbit thermostat that i keep reading about, let the forum know what you think.
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  14. irondogmike

    irondogmike Formula 3

    Sep 8, 2006
    2,170
    San Diego area
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    Michael Tucker
    I'm glad it worked out for you,I make it a practice to bled or burb the system about every 20 hrs of driving,it just helps me knowing that I did that and if the temp goes up I know its something else,but a thremostat hardly ever goes out,alot of poeple here told me the same thing to replace the stat and I did and it wasn't the problem,it was the guage,so start off with the easist and cheapest way to go. I also use water wetter by redline that helps me out here in the west coast,no need for antifreze
     
  15. AZDoug

    AZDoug Formula 3

    Jun 17, 2009
    1,437
    Along the Verde , AZ
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    Doug
    I had a problem like some years ago.

    Turned out one of the front blower fans failed.

    Thus not enough air thru the rad at idle, but at speed, it was fine.

    Doug
     
  16. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

    Jun 14, 2008
    5,827
    TX//Mexico/UK
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    Mike 996
    "I make it a practice to bled or burb the system about every 20 hrs of driving,"

    I'd suggest that if you really have to bleed the system at other than times where you change the coolant, there is some sort of problem that should be addressed. Air does not enter a properly functioning cooling system...
     
  17. irondogmike

    irondogmike Formula 3

    Sep 8, 2006
    2,170
    San Diego area
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    Michael Tucker
    #14 irondogmike, Jun 19, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2009
    what ever,and I suppose you don't ever check the oil because your car doesn't use or burn oil there for you shouldn't check it. not even to be safe?
     
  18. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

    Jun 14, 2008
    5,827
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    I wasn't trying to criticize. I got the impression - maybe wrongly - that you were saying there was air in the system and it needed to be burped after 20 hours of driving to get rid of it. If you are just doing it because you want to do so as part of your normal maint, that's totally your choice; but if you are doing it because air regularly gets into the system and interferes with proper cooling, then there is a problem of some sort that should be addressed because it shouldn't be happening.
     
  19. irondogmike

    irondogmike Formula 3

    Sep 8, 2006
    2,170
    San Diego area
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    Michael Tucker
    now that I agree with you,if its something you need to do just for that reason most sure there is a problem,but thats not the reason I do it maybe not that often but I do it most for sure if there a long trip in the works or if I take the cap off to check the water level. My car has not run hot since last year when I did a fluid change and water pump,in fact my car runs about *165 all time!
     

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