Waxing your F-car

Thanks but you don't need to thank me. I am passionate about this stuff (as dorky as that sounds) so to be able to share the information I have spent 1000s of hours researching is fun. My wife doesn't care about waxes (as much as I don't care about handbags) so it works out

I'm glad I can help out

 

Man, Todd really killed it in this thread.

One point that someone made about him that I feel was glanced over, was the technical knowledge required in order to use these types of products.

Being a professional detailer used to simply be about knowing the processes required to make a car perfect. All the products were roughly the same, and all the materials used to paint cars were similar as well.

Now this isn't the case. Modern clearcoats are enormously variable, differing in thickness, density, and hardness from manufacturer to manufacturer. Real detailers need to know these facts before even beginning. Since these clearcoats also have drastic differences in chemical composition, it is also important to know exactly how the products used are going to react with the fragile surfaces.

There is an upside to this, and a huge downside. When you get guys like Todd involved in a forum setting, they are more than happy to simply spill everything that they know onto the page. This is awesome, but it creates a problem of its own. It isn't just about waxes and polishes anymore, there is far to much variability in the equation to make it a simple choice of "what is good," and "what is bad."

Making a car perfect is almost an artform, which is why there are so few out there who are actually up to the task. This makes it hard for the standard hobbyist to really do on their own, especially with something like a Ferrari, simply because there is a steep learning curve at times and the penalty for mishaps is quite severe. But like Todd said, there are simple and safe ways to start. I know I am more than happy to do a job, while simultaneously putting on a type of clinic. I will gladly show owners exactly what I am doing, how to do it, and what the best ways of maintenance are. There are probably a lot of guys out there who are the same way.

Another note on Glazes, as Todd glanced over that as well. He mentioned that they were fillers, which is correct. The best way I can think to describe them is sort of an artificial layer of clearcoat. It can serve the same purpose for a limited duration only. Many detailers out there use thses in conjunction with poor polishing practices in order to give the appearance of a completed job. A truly defect free finish can only be completed by leveling the clearcoat through polishing. That means removing everything from scratches, to swirl marks, to polisher induced marks.

So I guess the whole point of my rant is to say that if you want a perfect finish, you either need to find someone who knows how to do it for you, or make sure that you can invest the time yourself to learn. Learn more about the finish of your car, about the processes to make it perfect, and the right materials to use to get it there.

Its really cool to have some truly knowledgeable people around to teach, they can really contrast the differences between someone who does it as a job, and someone who does it as an extention of their passion.

 

Todd- as usual you are a walking compendium of automobile detailing ! I so enjoy your threads -it seems like you do too.

Remember you have an open invitation with me when you get into Long Island .
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I'm trying to read through this, but I am trying to discern whether or not you are complimenting me, or presenting it as a problem when you say "guys like Todd in a forum setting, they are more than happy to simply spill everything that they know onto the page."

I haven't spilled 1/100th of what I know, but I am very open. I am trying to walk a fine line, because while I agree to get the best results and a "perfect finish" from your vehicle you are going to need somebody who is passionate about what they do and has a working knowledge of what is required to get the optimum results safely. However, I never want threads in which I answer questions to sound like infomercials. I try very hard to present easy to use techniques based on factual information.

Also, regarding the variences in clearcoats, they can vary greatly from car to car (even in the same make/model year). I have used sharp abrasive polishes (think Menzerna SCR's) on several 07 F430's and was able to achieve amazing results. I have also run into several 07 F430's that had the soft paint syndrome, in that sharper abrasive polishes would "grab" the paint and cause buffer counter rotation. I could write a three page essay on why this occurs, and why I switched a polish with a duller abrasive structure and more lubrication, as well as going to a firmer pad to perfect the difficult paint. There is a lot of personal on the job experience and knowledge to be gained from those who are passionate about learning, and I think that is what seperates the average detailers from those who truely strive to be the best. It also such a huge amount of information that it has to be streamlined to share with those who may not have the passion we do, but simply want there car to look good.

So there is a lot of technical knowledge involved for sure (less then 1/100th of which is shared), but some people just want easy to use products that produce good results. I feel like I have tried to help those people.

I think making a car perfect is an art forum, FWIW.

I'm not sure what I glanced over, because you didn't add anything that I didn't say? I would take that one step further and say that a lot of guys who THINK they are making paint perfect (ie think they are good detailers) are really terrible. I know of a lot of detailers who are using Menzerna 106ff as a final polish and bragging about the results because Menzerna is filler free. However, the carrier used in 106ff (a wax based lubricant) can bond into the abrasions caused by the pad and become very stubborn to remove. So the paint isn't perfect (but looks that way for several months as the stubborn carrier acts to "glaze" the pad abrasion). However a lot of detailers who think they are doing the right thing haven't done the research on the product and found it is designed for Mercedes Benz as a production polish used on specific varients of cermiaclear paint, and that it is not the most enviromentally stable polish.

Personally, I wipe all of my car's down with DuPont Prep-Sol which is a solvent used in paint prep to ensure the complete removal of all oils and carriers on the paint's surface and ensure that the car is perfect.

I agree with this, but nobody onthis thread said they wanted to make their car perfect. While I agree that top notch detailers (and honestly, IME, there are very few) are a great option for those who want perfection, the other end of the spectrum is a lot of people want their cars to look very nice, with out spending top dollar, or to have the pleasure of doing it themselves. I think this great as well.

 

Micheal thank you very much!

Your car looks amazing (I just detailed a F355 Spider, GOD what an awesome car). If I could line up enough clients to make the trip worth it for everybody, I would love to come up to the big apple

 

I'll be there April 16th, Do I need to bring my buffer? - LOL!

Email sent..........

 

Todd,

I wasn't trying to say that it was anything like an infomercial setting. I was saying that it is unbelieveably beneficial in a forum setting to have people that are truly knowledgeable about a subject, and who are willing to simply offer up that knowledge as a service of its own to all those who want to absorb it.

Infomercials are for people who wish to partially educate, while simultaneously benefitting themselves. Truly beneficial internet forums aren't for people like that. It is a gathering of knowledge, a place of community for people that have like passions. Many of these passions intertwine. People who are willing to share that passion, no matter what direction it may be in, are the best participants to any type of forum such as this.

That is what you are doing. You are taking what you know, and putting it out there as a method of spreading what you are passionate about, and informing everyone at the same time.

And when I talked about someone wanting their car to be perfect, it was obviously an assumption. Although, I believe it to be an accurate one. Perfection is obviously in the eye of the beholder; opinions are always going to vary. But if you are passionate about your car you are always going to want the most from it. I was simply pointing out that making a car, especially ones like these, look amazing is more than going down to your local auto parts store and buying Turtle Wax off the shelf. It is an artform, comprised of product selection based on careful research and knowledge, and the knowledge of how to use those products correctly.

Having experts involved in a forum like this allows everyone access to the knowledge that can sometimes only come from experience. They can forego the sometimes difficult trial and error process that professionals have to experience when searching for the best stuff out there.

So...I guess to make it simple. Its awesome to share what you know, especially when you know a lot.

Jonathan

 

Hi Todd,

Tried to PM you on similar detailing question. Your PM box is full and needs to be cleaned out.

John Feeney
303 475 7840

 

Todd- Do you ever get down to Miami and, if so, do you have time for an extra car or two??

 

Hi John, sorry about that. My Silver Subscription ran out (and I need to renew) so my PM limit dropped. Please resend!

 

Todd, this morning I re-read your longish post on page 1. I now take back my "too much info" comment. Giving the reading attention it deserves, its really not that nasty. So I'd like to take the DIY approach and simply touch up my car. Couple of Q's for you"

- I'm a little confused about your usage of wax vs. a sealant though.... are you using these terms interchangably? If I wax the paint, aren't I also sealing the paint?

- I recently found a liquid clay product. Don't recall the brand, but I think it was called something like "liquid claybar" (imagine that!). Anyway, was wondering if you've had any experience with using a liquid over a paste/solid clay. Won't simply using polishing compound (again, forget the brand, but green tub with the white paste) do the same thing?

- For that matter, can you elaborate a little on the "polishing" step? When/how/why?


Thanks in advance for all the info!!!!!!

 

I won't answer all the questions since they were for Todd and I don't want to take away from his input but I can clarify between a wax and a paint sealant.

References to a wax are typically made about a carnuba based wax. Examples here would be Pinnacle Souveran, Zymol Vintage, P21S 100%, etc. Waxes are typically more organic compounds.

References to a paint sealant are typically made about man made polymers that are used as surface protection, in the same manner as a wax is. Examples here would be Zaino, Klasse all in one, Einzeitt Glans Wax, etc. Paint sealants are typically man made non-organic compounds.

Although they both do the job, they do the jobs a little bit differently.

I will let Todd elaborate all he wants on that, I just wanted to throw that out there as a quick answer.

 

Oh, I see. thanks.

Typically though, they are applied the same way... in other words, one isn't any quicker/better than the other, right?

 

Like I said, I will let Todd go into detail on a lot of these points.

Yes they do typically go on the same way. You want to apply either of them to a bare clearcoat in order to ensure a tight bond between the clear and whatever last stage product you are using. Typically you can use a 50/50 mix of alcohol and water in order to clean the surface before applying your wax or paint sealant.

The two don't really work exactly the same way, or give the same results though.

There is a lot of debate on the intrinsic value of either; they both have their pros and cons. Waxes are typically known for providing a great amount of color depth and good shine, while offering fairly decent longevity in regards to paint protection. Paint sealants are typically known to have a little flatter color depth, good shine, and long lasting protection. But remember this is just a generalization. As you go from one product to the next there are of course going to be variances.

Due to these variances, this is where preference is going to come in.

I will let Todd elaborate. Hopefully I gave him a solid starting point, and gave you a simple answer to your question. Unfortunately, I am sure this answer has now spawned 20 new questions...but such is the nature of things like this. The more you learn, the more you find you don't know.

 

Quote: Here are some pictures to prove my point.

Picture one is what the surface of a black Range Rover looks like under halogen lighting. No matter how nice the wax used is, it will never look great because of the damage to the paint.

Picture two is what the surface of the black Range Rover looks like after being machine polished to perfection (it took about 90 minutes on the door alone). I should note that the area has also been wiped with a solvent to remove any oils that "could" make the paint look nicer.

Picture three is the Range Rover outside, after being waxed.

Picture four is an F430 that has been polishes and wiped with prep-sol (a solvent). What you see is bare paint, perfected. Any wax or sealant is going to look great because the canvas is perfect![/QUOTE]




Very nice! not to beat a dead horse, but I've got a couple of black cars- 993TT and a RRover-what exactly did you use to get those swirls out? I do like the Imperial glaze, but don't seem to get the same results with the Zaino stuff..Of course I've never spent 90 minutes on a door, so that's part of the problem..any help regarding specific products would be much appreciated! thanks Tropical.

 

Hey Kevin, let’s take this from the top...

Both sealants and waxes fall into the LSP (Last Step Product/Protectant) category. If you wax a car, you are in fact sealing it. Because there are no guidelines (like the FDA or something) all the terms are used interchangeably, for example.

Zaino calls its product a "polish" when in fact it is really a polymer sealant.
Klasse calls its product a "glaze" when in fact is also a polymer sealant (though acrylic based).
Meguiars' calls its NXT product "wax" when it is also a sealant.

In general, a good definition would be...

Sealant- Synthetic polymers, acrylics, or resins designed to "bond" together and also bond into the pours of the paint.

Wax- Naturally occuring products (usually carnauba wax mixed with paraffin or beeswax) designed to be applied to the wax in a solvent solution. As the solvent "outgasses" and the product hazes, the wax hardens on top of the paint. Since there is no real "bonding" to the paint, wax tends to be less durable.

Glaze- An oil based (or acrylic based) product designed to increase the gloss of paint and "mask" imperfections in the paints surface.

Polish- An abrasive medium (think sand paper in a water-oil emulsion) designed to "sand" away paint. From extra cut (compound) to ultra fine (polishing or jewelling) these products are used to manipulate the paints surface to remove defects (by removing the paint around the defect and blending it in) and increase the gloss.

Since the LSP's are limited to either synthetic (sealant), natural (wax), or blended, I will limit the discussion to these.

In general, sealants tend to last much longer then a wax. However, this is not with out compromise, because most sealants lack the "depth" of a wax. However, sealants tend to much more reflective. Older generation sealants where often classified as "plasticy" in appearance, very shiny, but almost sterile. Another draw back is that sealants tend to magnify the defects in the paint's surface, and you cannot use an oil based glaze on the paint to hide the defects because it will affect the bonding.

Waxes tend to produce more depth and warmth on the paints surface. The most popular form of wax is carnauba, because it is the hardest, most effective wax at protecting the paint's surface. However, carnauba wax, by itself doesn't last very long (melting point of 181 degrees) and doesn't look very good. So carnauba wax is blended with oils (and cut with solvents) to add that deep look to the paint. Since waxes do not bond, but rather sit on the paint, you can use an oil based glaze to increase the paint's appearance with no ill effects.

Blended products (and most are blended) generally are the jack of all trades, but master of none. They will not last as long nor be as shiny as a pure sealant, nor will they look as deep and as warm as a natural wax. However, most consumer products (over the counter) are blended as they achieve good results for the majority of people.

Of course there are exceptions to every rule....

Zaino is a synthetic polymer that (when applied properly to perfectly clean paint) will last 6-9 months, easily. It is very glossy, but still has reasonable depth. The benefit of Zaino is that it can be layered over and over again (Zaino will bond to itself, much like painting a wall in your house. You can apply paint to primer and to itself), so with enough coats of Zaino, you can mimic the "depth" of a carnauba wax and have amazing clarity and gloss. However, if you look at the Zaino site, you can see it is a time consuming process that requires a lot of steps for proper application.

On the flip side, Collonite makes an insulated carnauba wax that looks nearly as good (deep and warm) as the high end waxes, and has almost the reflectivity of a sealant, and it will last 6 months in the tough, humid, sunny Florida climate.

Regarding the clay bar questions. I am not sure how liquid clay works, I have played around with the Turtle Wax version, and it does an okay job, but not as good as the traditional detailer’s clay. One thing to keep in mind is that detailer's clay is an abrasive product that "sheers" away the contaminants that above the surface of the paint. There are different grades of clay (most consumer clay is very mild so that miss use does not induce marring into the paint). Basically the clay floats on the surface of the lubricant you use and sheers away contaminates that are "bonded" to the paint surface.

When you ask about the polishing compound in the green can, white paste, I believe you are referring to the Turtle Wax polishing compound. Technically you are correct, the abrasives in the compound will sheer away the contaminates. However, those contaminates will be sheer off and become wedged between the paint and the pad you are using to polish with and they will grind into the paint, causing more swirl marks and damage. Claying allows you to safely remove the contaminates and make sure you are polishing on a completely "clean" surface, for best results.

That said; do not use the Turtle Wax polishing compound. It is simply a cheap product that will increase the gloss of the paint (by removing oxidation) and leaving behind silicone, but will actually damage the paint. It is a product designed to meet a price point, and thus the quality of the product suffers, which brings me to the last question...

Polishing is really a re-leveling of the paint's surface by removing a small amount of paint. If you think of a scratch like the Grand Canyon, the only way to make that scratch go away is by completely removing all the land surrounding the canyon. Then it is re-leveled and even. However the abrasives used to remove the paint will leave damage behind that needs to be removed by using finer and finer "grits" until the surface is smooth like a highly polished jewel. The only true way to do this is with high quality products, techniques, and 1000's of hours of experience.

The paint on your car is less then a sheet of paper thick, however proper polishing will remove less then 1/100th of this total "film" build. I could write a 300 page book on proper polishing techniques so it’s hard to condense into a couple paragraphs. The point is that anytime you see swirl marks or damage in the paint, the only way to remove them is have the paint re-leveled so that you are looking at "fresh" paint. Even new cars need to be polished, as most new cars have a "gloss" factor of 3.8 as tested by Menzerna (out of 5). Proper polishing can bring that level up to a 5, because when the paint is perfectly (and microscopically) level, it will reflect maximum light.

Doing it by hand (or having an inexperienced person do it) will generally remove way more paint then necessary while leaving behind damage (so that the paint almost doesn't look buffed). Also most body shops use "filler" compounds which will remove some scratches, but they lack the experience to really jewel the paint and make it perfect so they use a glaze to make it look good for several weeks. Machine polishing and jewelling paint to perfection is something that really is an art form, and very difficult to explain in text.

 

To remove the swirls required machine polishing the paint to remove all paint that was higher then the lowest part of the scratches (in this case mircoscopic swirl marks). After this was done, finer grits of diminishing abrasives where once again used to re-level the defects that where left behind from the previous step, and so on and so on until under a magnifinig glass in direct halegon light the paint looked perfect. Its like sanding a car with 2500 grit, 5000 grit, 10000 grit and finally 30000 grit paper to make it perfect.

However a lot of factors come into play such as paint hardness and depth, depth of the defects, the type of pads used on the machine, the abrasive nature (sharpness, amount, hardness) of the polishes and how they react between specific paint types and pad types, RPM, and so on and so forth. Basically what I did was expensively and perfectly re-level or remove the damaged paint so the perfectly jeweled paint was no visible. Like I said in a previous post, I could write a 300 page book on how to properly re-level the paint while only removing 1/100 or less of the paint's surface.

Imperial Glaze works well for you because it hides the defects and makes the paint "look" better temporaily. You can top with with a quality carnauaba based wax to seal in the glaze so the results last longer. However, Zaino requires clean paint to work (no glazes) so it will not look better until the defects are actually removed.

 

I guess I'm not the only one PM'ing him with questions.

-F

 

Can you re-send? I don't believe I got a PM from you. My silver subscription ended (I guess a couple days ago) so it cut my PM limit from 200 to 50. I may have lost some in the transition. I am going Rossa, but it will take a couple days to go through. My PM box fills up quick, but I have space. Sorry!

 

PM sent.

-F

 

My car has clear protective film applied to the front. What if any special care should I be taking for the filmed areas? So far, I have just been leaving them alone -- no treatment at all.

- Eric

 

I would recommend treating the film on the front similar to the painted sections. I know that 3M actually has a small layer of clear coat applied to it, so that it can be polished, etc... It is also prone to oxidation, so it should be protected with wax and/or sealant. The only special consideration is that I would not use a strong solvent based carnauba wax on it just to be safe.

Also, if it isn't the 3M type (and therefore doesn't have the clear coat) then be very careful when washing it. You can put swirls into the layer, but it can be very difficult to remove them since polishing plastic is very difficult and requires special polishes. You can also use Lexol, which is a spray polish, to clean the layer and protect it.

 

appreciate the response tropical! when are you going to be published? lord man, enough info to choke a horse!!

 

Incredible work...who screwed it up to start?

 

No problem, you are very welcome! I'm just getting warmed up