Webers vs Spica FI in Older Alfa? | FerrariChat

Webers vs Spica FI in Older Alfa?

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by UroTrash, Jan 6, 2011.

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  1. UroTrash

    UroTrash Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 20, 2004
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    Clifford Gunboat
    I'm getting closer to buying an old Alfa spider.

    The earlier cars have Webers, the later cars have Spica fuel injection.

    I've always been partial to Webers, and a bit afraid of fuel injection, esp older systems.

    But maybe that is unfair.

    Maybe I'm unnecessarily eliminating a bunch of cars unfairly?

    Thoughts?
     
  2. plip

    plip Formula Junior

    Aug 25, 2003
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    Gianni Olivieri
    Weber (or Dellortos). Solex are less desirable (if they were at all available in the US).
    Have a GT2000 with 45 DHLA Dellortos (http://www.vespaio.net/Alfa%202000%20GT%20Veloce.htm). The induction sound with ram air pipes in unbeatable. Also had a more recent spider with Jetronic with was no way near the 2.0 lt with carbs. Just my 2 cents.

    Gianni
     
  3. cptndon

    cptndon Formula Junior
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    Jan 24, 2005
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    You have a PM
     
  4. JCR

    JCR F1 Veteran
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    Mar 14, 2005
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    The main problem with the SPICA was the ham-fisted American mechanics that worked on them. Remember it is an MFI not EFI.
     
  5. hyenahf

    hyenahf F1 Rookie

    May 25, 2004
    2,603
    spica with stock ITB's sounds just as nice if not better than the webers...

    for street use or mild tuning i'd go spica, for racecars go weber for ease of tuning. once set up correctly you dont need to touch it 7-10 years with the exception of changing the pump filter once in a while. try that with the dcoe's

    all things being equal, spica has a tad more topend power but a little loss of throttle response at low rpms.

    to tune a spica you need to send the pump in to recalibrate the fuel curve = $$$$ just the like the long nose MFI 911 cars.

    if you do go with a spica car, make sure its a 74 or older. the spica pumps are richer in case you want a mild upgrade in cams. later pumps are smog reducing devices along with restrictive, cams, exhuast manifolds etc...

    my 2cents

    rs
     
  6. 8339

    8339 Karting

    Oct 17, 2006
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    Richard
    I've been working on Spica equipped Alfas for the better part of 35 years. If adjusted correctly the units are very trouble free. No carburetor will pump fuel into a manifold at 360 psi like the Spica pumps. Most owners who took off the fuel injection was due to not understanding how they worked or didn't have a mechanic understood how repair them. Once they are set there's really no adjustments needed. Check out Wes Ingram Eneterprises, Wes is the only guy I'll send a pump too and he has a manual that explains the whole system.
     
  7. UroTrash

    UroTrash Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Thanks, looks like a remarkable set up. He even posts his prices, love that!

    http://www.wesingram.com/hp.htm
     
  8. jal

    jal Formula Junior

    Jul 26, 2009
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    I wish I had known you before I sold my 72 2000GT 30 years ago due to hamfisted mechanics.
     
  9. Fritz Ficke

    Fritz Ficke Formula 3
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    Jan 3, 2006
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    I like mech. fuel injection like Spica and it is getting rediscovered by enthusiast. Power and fuel economy can be good with it and it can pass emission regulations well. Porsche guys are spending big $$ to go back to the original Mechanical Bosch fuel injection (almost identical to Spica) from Webers on their cars.
    I just took off the Spica fuel injection off my little Alfa Alfetta Coupe and put a pair of Solex carbs on.
    The Spica ran great passed emissions easily and even started not to hard but the pressure pump was leaking gas into the crank case and making the engine smoke.
    A rebuilt Spica pump is $900.00. Gasket set for old carbs and manifold I had on the shelf was $50.00.
    I also question unleaded gas with alcohol, like we get at the pumps, lubrication ability of these little mechanical jewel Spica pumps piston bores.
     
  10. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Napolis has had to renovate a mechanical injection system for his 412P or P3/4.....early mechanical injection system..

    He admits to premixing a light ratio of oil into his fuel for those cars.....
     
  11. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    #11 Rifledriver, Jan 6, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2011
    I worked on Spica systems since they were new too and attended many factory schools on it. Still have all the books, training materials and special tools. The difference was I came from working on Bosch systems. The Spica was unmitigated garbage.

    Bosch made a good system.....Spica did not. The pumps were a Tinker Toy.

    I had a saying "The Germans should not be allowed to build carbs (Solex = Garbage) and the Italians should never be allowed to build fuel injection (Spica).
     
  12. hyenahf

    hyenahf F1 Rookie

    May 25, 2004
    2,603

    most likely a lucas system?
     
  13. hyenahf

    hyenahf F1 Rookie

    May 25, 2004
    2,603

    my spica works fine....like many other alfa owners out there. people run into problems when they start dicking with it.

    try asking the aston guys what they think of their bosch MF1?

    any 2002tii out there that like theres?
     
  14. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    #14 Rifledriver, Jan 6, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2011
    You didn't spend every day in a dealer fixing them. In 1969 when it was introduced Alfa added $750 to the price of the car to cover warranty costs for the fuel injection system for one year. How much do you think was the total MSRP for a 69 Duetto or GTV? And how big a percentage of that was $750?
     
  15. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Not sure.....much earlier than this discussion (1967 - 68) sorry, was just speaking to the modern fuels/lubrication issue........
     
  16. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    #16 Rifledriver, Jan 6, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2011
    Lucas.

    Like a Hillborn in the sense it is crude and rudimentry but works well in a race application.
     
  17. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Thanks, if I see the pics correctly it's one big slide across all six ports, each side??

    IIRC he had Steve Kinser rework it all to function....
     
  18. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    #18 Rifledriver, Jan 6, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2011
    It has a gillotine manifold. Alfa used those too on the GTAM's.

    Steve is kind of the main man in the US for Lucas. He has done some work on them for me too. He hates them but does do them.


    And its Kinsler, not Kinser. Different guys.
     
  19. hyenahf

    hyenahf F1 Rookie

    May 25, 2004
    2,603
    so what actually went wrong with the pumps? so are you suggesting dont buy a vintage alfa that has a spica? bascally if it was huge problem they would have discountue the spica car long berfore 1980. from 1969-79 spica car vasly out sold the later bosch cars many times over.

    spicas arent perfect but they were consider an upgrade for the period. the last autodelta 105 Gtam cars reverted to spica after DCOEs on the gta's... this had nothing to do with emission.

    i have a 69 non cut-off pump, and in the past 72,74,79 spica cars and now a hot spica 160hp dual purpose car. i could have easly went weber or EFI. i just thought its a using an original componet is part of the charm of owning a vintage car.

    a spica is a signature alfa componet much like a sliding block unit. there are better off the self system ie, panhard, watts etc. but whats the point? just buy a C7 vette if you want to go fast with reliability.

    cheers

    rs
     
  20. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    #20 Rifledriver, Jan 6, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2011
    Alfa at the time was owned by the Italian government and was reqiuired to source their parts in Italy. They were not allowed to buy Bosch. That requirement ended, they had bought enough Spica junk to ammortize the development and went straight to Bosch.
    And it was for US or North America only. Everyone else stayed with carbs until they went to a good system, Bosch.

    Every time a cut off switch got wet the car stops. Duh it's on the bottom of the car. The rack springs broke with regularity. So much so we all built ourselves special tools to allow us to replace them without removing the pump. They will not regulate for altitude change. It was a very well known problem and if you set the car at sea level and drive to the mountains they would overheat the cat. We could lean them out enough to work but the they ran like crap at low altitude and may not start. Alfa worked with all the US dealers on that one and eventually just threw up their hands. The theromstatic actuators were a joke. The system will not produce consistant fuel mixture. The entire governer design look like it was designed by a guy named Rube Goldberg. Tak a Bosch pump apart sometime and compare the two. One was designed by engineers. One by children.

    It wasnt a bad system for a race car like the GTAM but their requirements are totally different from a street car. And their is no question an FI system, even a bad one will produce more HP than carbs in a race application. BTW I have worked on GTAM pumps and they are different. They eliminated a lot of the tinker toys to make them reliable.
     
  21. Fritz Ficke

    Fritz Ficke Formula 3
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    "The Germans should not be allowed to build carbs (Solex = Garbage) and the Italians should never be allowed to build fuel injection (Spica).[/QUOTE]

    I like that ^^^^^

    I was trying to be polite comparing Bosch to Spica, Rifledriver does not seem to have a problem saying it like it is.
     
  22. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Appreciate the correction, I always wondered how a Fuel Injection Guru had time to be a Champion Dirt Track racer!!!! LOL!

    I stay confused.....:D :D
     
  23. Fritz Ficke

    Fritz Ficke Formula 3
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    Now I am confused, who is the Champion dirt track racer?
     
  24. Santiago Montenegro

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    The proverbial can of worms. Some alfisti swear by the Spica FI, some swear at it.
     
  25. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    #25 BigTex, Jan 6, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Steve Kinsler vs. Steve Kinser (World of Outlaws)
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