what are Ferrari's problems?

There are a lot of topics that have discussed this topic ad nauseum. Pls search the racing forum

 

The F2005 is the first car for new designer ... !!!

Yep true, it is not a Roy Bryne car.
Pete

 

The car seems to suffer from snap oversteer. The nose doesn't seem very precise either. I also remember Rubens locking up and sliding off a few times. A braking problem?

 

The performance of any race car is a function of all its components and the way they interact with each other.

As stand alone components, the tires, the brakes, the engine and aerodynamics etc. are fine. The way these components interact with each other are subject to limitations. These limitations stifle the F2005's overall performance.

 

While that may be partically true they seems to be lacking in two key areas. Braking seems lacking in comparison to last year and the car seems to have some power on oversteer that was not as apparent last year.

 

Their main problem is that they are unable to get their cars to cross the finish line before the Renaults, McClarens, Hondas,Toyotas, BMWs...ect

 

Ferrari's 2005 season as compared to 2004 and even earlier, is almost a mystery. Tires? Sure at the beginning of the season, but seems like Bridgestone is large enough to have corrected this by mid-season. Brakes, sure, but Ferrari always seem to be able to respond to such technical issues rather quickly.

So really what is it? It is almost as if the powers that be in F1 pulled Ferrari aside and told them their superiority is boring non-Ferrari fans, so those fans are not going to the races, and not watching the TV broadcast. So please Ferrari, would you sandbag for a year, let the other teams look really good, we can improve TV ratings, race attendance, etc. Then in 2006, you can go back to your normal ability to beat the crap out of everyone.

OK, probably not reality, but something to consider.

 

Kinda doubtful. Mainly because why would a team such as ferrari sandbag and make themselves look so worthless. If They were gonna sandbag they would have made it close at least which would have been more exciting, not just drop off out of the top 6 spots on the grid.

 

Agreed. This is F1 not boxing. Team orders can influence individual races, but an entire team of the reputation and size of Ferrari cannot be manipulated as an entire entity. That's like saying NASA faked the moon landings.

 

Let's not forget that Ferrari were the only team to commit to staying in bed with F1 for a while. The spectacle, for various reasons one of which has been Ferrari utter dominance so far this decade, has suffered in the fans eyes. And the bottom line in all this is that it is a show that involves 100's of millions of dollars across the globe. The more fan interest, the more dollars. So why is it so unfathomable that they were asked to backoff for the good of the sport ? It's almost as hard to believe Ferrari can fall so far and so fast from the top as it is to believe that Ferrari has been asked to sandbag or back off a bit this season.

With the head start they had in terms of a dominant car and momentum coming out of last year(and prior years for that matter), with the resources, experience and drivers it's so very difficult to believe the package is so inept this year. And that they have been totally unable to sort out the shortcomings.

 

I can imagine they were asked to back off, sure. But it is ABSOLUTELY UNTHINKABLE the Scuderia would have agreed to any such deal. Heck, they wouldn't have agreed to adding a chicane in Indy and that was only one race. Do you really believe they would have agreed to throw an entire season?

C'mon! Let's be realistic here. Montezemolo would have terminated any of his employees (Brawn, Todt, Schumacher) on the spot if they had suggested such a thing. This is not lala land, this is a serious car manufacturer competing with serious money.

The drop in performance is a lot easier to comprehend if you look at how close the competition still is this year. And if you look back in F1's history many teams (including Ferrari in the seventies) had years of midfield performance after years of utter dominance. This sport is cyclical.

 

To me the prospect that the sponsors would accept mid pack performance for the top dollar they spend with Ferrari would be unfathomable. What might be easier to accept would be that Brawn, Todt, Bridgestone, MS, and RB as a team have outlived the edge they brought to the sport. The magic is leaving and the things they did to win are not so revolutionary any more. In the world of business there are very very few companies that have gone through "rags to riches" periods with exactly the same CEO and team. Its time for Ferrari to re-engineer and to change.

 

Agreed on both. I mentioned Montezemolo in my previous post, but of course if you are part of such a global company as Fiat and Ferrari is, there are a lot more watchdogs than one person. Sponsors, stakeholders, board members, executives etc etc. That's why I'm comparing these allegations to NASA having faked the moon landings. One driver (as a boxer) can throw a race, no question, but an entire race team throwing an entire year? No way. Too many jobs, dollars, livelihoods, prestige, interests at stake. Simply not happening in the real world of today's business.

In regards to the team reaching the end of the rope: PSK predicted that a couple of years ago and asked for fresh blood and new thinking. Gordon Murray was brilliant beyond comparison at Brabham, yet eventually his cars became midfield competitors. Patrick Head was the genius who brought Williams from nowhere to multiple championships but now is pretty much out of it. Forghieri was brilliant for Ferrari for a few years, so was Brawn. All good things must end.

 

Don't get me wrong here. I really don't think Ferrari have been asked to backoff. If they were asked it would have been with Montezemolo's OK so that's why no heads would be rolling. But to think that Brawn, Todt, Bridgestone, MS, and RB have outlived the edge or their competiveness is as crazy as thinking they have been asked to drop it a gear this year.

I just think that with an eye towards getting the fan base built back up and with huge sums of money and that fact that it is BIG business and Ferrari are part of and not larger than the buisness that it's not that ludicrous that Bernie would ask Luca. Who knows what concessions may have been made to Ferrari. Bunch of bull probably but an interesting conspiracy theory and somewhat plausible though.

 

It's highly implausible for two main reasons. One F1, by in large, is a selfish type sport. Luca or the whole Ferrari team could give a crap about the sport's popularity as long as they win. There is no point to racing otherwise, the goal is to dominate. Secondly to turn themselves into midfield runners if they did do this would not be acceptable to the team's sponsors or anyone else within the team. If it were a case of sandbagging it would have been made much closer. Can you imagine if another team and driver came along and in a straight fight knocked MS and Ferrari off thier high horse? That would have created an enormous popularity with fans, not to see Ferrari drop off the pace totally as they have this year. I think the fall off in pace is legitimate. Such is the ebb and flow of the balance or power in the sport.

 

It could be many little things amounting to one big drop in performance but IMO the one tire rule has hit Ferrari the most or at least they adapted to it the least (together with Bridgestone). Don't forget that with the tire changes MS could bang in some laps at near qualifying pace after every pitstop. Look at the 2004 France GP where they did no less than FOUR pitstops!

Jean Todt has said that getting the right compound for a tire is like mixing a cocktail assuming that it's some kind of black magic which frightens me a bit because I would think a tire manufacturer would know what he's doing.

Ciao, Peter

 

Tire grip, excessive tire wear, and poor tire choice are the three biggest reasons. A non-functioning Rubens and poor adjustment to the new aero regulations are probably big reasons.

And seriously, I do not expect them to do well next year. McLaren (with Newey) will still be in a class by themselves next year. Toyota & Honda will try to close the gap, but fail probably.

 

With the new V8 I expect Cosworth the engine to beat so it's going to be even harder for Ferrari next year I'm affraid.

 

Remember guys chassis balance is absolutely key with any race car ... and that comes from the drawing board really.

You can tune a car to be more balanced but if it is just not right you will never get it perfect.

We have watched Ferrari struggle with setup all year long ... thus I (as I have always said) believe there is a chassis balance issue that they can sometimes live with say for qualifying or practice but in doing so sacrifice something else ... like the tyres.

On top of this fundamental flaw with the chassis is the tyres which bridgestone got wrong at the begining, but by now probably have sorted AND this new brake system.

Remember guys Williams, McLaren ALL winning teams sometimes drop off the pace and it is Ferrari's turn.


Why does this happen?

Again I have always said it is often because the design team have lost their way. Lets think about Roy and Ross, etc. they have been designing the top car now for over 5 years ... it is impossible to believe that their ideas, out of the billions of people that habitat this plane, are going to continue to be the right ideas. Thus they and this new designer have either run out of ideas and thus warming over their old ones OR simply tried something that did not work.

I used to be a mechanical designer, no not of race cars, but airport baggage handling equipment and I can absolutely tell you that you do get stale. You cannot expect a single person or even the same team to continually come up with radical and NEW clever ideas all the time. Sometimes a change is required to stimulate the team, even sometimes a new person with different ideas is required.

McLaren for example have spent the last 3+ years altering their design team and now this is bearing fruit (again). Renault did the same when they took over Benetton ... this is one of the main reasons why F1 IS cyclic as Tifosi pointed out.

So accept that Ferrari have designed a dud, and instead of moaning at them, 'cause we all know that they will be hurting more than we are, support them and instead (as I am) look for signs that they are understanding the issues and finding ways to stimulate that team again.

To be 100% honest I think the team needs MS to retire. If MS is still motivated like he was 8 years ago ... well he is plain and simple not normal. If Ross and Roy and even Jean are still as motivated also well again there is something wrong upstairs.

We all love and dream about F1, but give them a break ... it is a JOB to them, yep a job of a life time but after 8 years of constant travel, of huge hours and pressures, you can absolutely bet that it is now just a job like all our good jobs are.

I do believe that a new designer designed the F2005 and thus this shows that Ferrari are rotating people and bringing in fresh blood, but if this person served an apprentiseship under Roy then he will be already restricted in his thinking due to his training. I believe they need to get in an outsider or even a team of them, somebody young and even straight out of University.

They need to set some sort of brain dumping design team and let this team generate some radical ideas. Then the more senior team can mature these concepts in to a race car.

Now this ofcourse means that Ferrari will struggle for the next say 3 years until this bears fruit ... but that is heaps better than waiting another 21 years like they did last time. And guess what, Ferrari did a massive team personal change to stimulate the team back to their winning ways ... thus I'm suggesting they do it again!

Yep MS, Roy, Ross and Jean thank you for your efforts but it is time for the next wave

Pete

 

Pete, you write a good argument. and I think we agree on many things, but here you have a few glaring question marks..

Firstly... In your very first post on this topic you said it's not a Roy Byrne design.. and I honestly don't know if you're right or not, but now you say he and his team have designed a dud and it's time to move on

Secondly... if you really knew... you would know that it's RORY and not ROY!!!

Finally, I'm lucky to have a very good contact in the team, and of course he can't reveal too much to me, but the car is not a dud. If you look across the board, you'll see that Michelin have simply done an incredible job with this years tyres.

That's not saying the Ferrari is perfect, but put Michelins on it and then re ask the question......

What would Ferrari pay to get a few sets to trial.... hmmmmmm

 

I don't believe for a minute that the Ferrari with Michelins would be any better. Probably even worse as chassis/suspension/engine characteristics have to build one package with the tires. The Bridgestone is designed for the Ferrari (which is why it doesn't work on the Jordan and Minardi, but who cares), but not fast enough. A Michelin put on the current Ferrari would not work.

Would the Michelin work on last year's Ferrari? Probably not either, just look at this year's Sauber.

 

2005 Monza
Fastest lap per team
1:21.504 Raikkonen (McLaren) [1.385 seconds faster]
1:22.146 Alonso (Renault) [.709 seconds faster]
1:22.831 Trulli (Toyota) [.579 seconds faster]
1:22.870 Pizzonia (Williams) [.624 seconds slower]
1:23.161 Button (BAR) [.501 seconds slower]
1:23.365 Massa (Sauber) [.750 seconds slower] {Became slower after switching to Michelins}
1:23.466 Barrichello (Ferrari) [2.420 seconds slower]
1:23.633 Klien (Red Bull/Jaguar) [.543 seconds slower]
1:24.810 Montiero (Jordan) [.749 seconds slower]
1:24.966 Albers (Minardi) [1.390 seconds faster]

2004 Monza
Fastest lap per team
1:21.046 Barrichello (Ferrari)
1:22.246 Pizzonia (Williams)
1:22.615 Fisichella (Sauber)
1:22.660 Sato (BAR)
1:22.855 Trulli (Renault)
1:22.889 Coulthard (McLaren)
1:23.090 Webber (Jaguar/Red Bull)
1:23.410 Zonta (Toyota)
1:24.061 Pantano (Jordan)
1:26.356 Baumgartner (Minardi)

It's not all down to the tires. This track is usually a place Ferrari can count on for a good finish.

Three of the current Michelin teams had their times improve. Three of the teams had their times deprove.

Sauber, which switched from Bridgestones to Michelin in the 2004-2005 hiatus also had their times deprove. Jordan 'only' deproved by .75 seconds. Minardi actually increased their speed (although that should have been assumed, they are the most improved team this year). It's hard to think the drop off in all of Ferrari performance is due solely to the tires.

 

My imformation states that a new designer designed the car but Rory is still very much lead or part of the team.

My appologies ... but I am not trying to name drop or anything, just trying to make a point. My information simply comes from the net and/or watching races

While I agree that tyres are extremely important, I sorry the car is a dud IMO, just as the F2003-GA was, etc. Not all Ferraris are good cars, and that even goes for their road cars.

You cannot just change tyre brands like that, the tyre characteristics are way to much part of the overall design.

Pete
ps: Details are not always my strong point ... I'm a concept person