What are the technical differences between Valeo and F1?

Valeo is a stick shift car that has electronic switch control for the clutch. Driver handles the shifting, electronics handles the clutch.

No, it is not fair to describe F1 as an automatic. F1 is a standard stick shift set up (clutch and transaxle) that is controlled by electronics using hydraulics. Controls are handling both clutch and shifting based on the electronic input from the driver. Brake and throttle and shift paddles.

Automatics are a completely different design of transmission that uses a torque converter instead of a clutch and planetary gear sets for different speeds.

This is just the basics.
I am sure others on here will elaborate more on the details of the differences.




Complete Layman's questions here

As I understand it the Valeo set up was a traditional manual transmission with an electric clutch.


Is it fair to describe the F1 transmission as an automatic transmission that people can shift?

And what does that mean if so? What is the difference between an automatic and manual transmission in general?

I have had automatics and you can move the gear lever and it will down shift. But that just lowers the highest gear it can be in.

Thanks, technically curious here.

Sixcarbs[/QUOTE]

 

In simplest terms...

Valeo system - "To change gears, the driver selects the desired gear with the transmission shift lever, and the system automatically operates the clutch."

F1 System - Same as above but "Also, many such transmissions operate in sequential mode where the driver can only upshift or downshift by one gear at a time."

 

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Years ago one rolled into my shop. The gentleman who owned it was probably 60 and had a bad left leg. He walked with a cane. It was a red / tan mondial cab.

It was the first one I'd ever seen. Of course he loved it because he could drive a Ferrari, which in those days required you to have a clutch. This was before the 355 F1 era.

What I remember was a large IBM PC in the trunk to do the calculations of how to engage the clutch. I thought it was remarkable.


F1 gearboxes move and engage the clutch as well as shifting the gears. The Valeo system still had a standard stick shift with some sensors to tell the computer what the driver was doing with the stick.

 

About naming and description...

Valeo can be defined as an "Semi-Automatized" system. You just have an actuador for the clutch.

DCT and F1 are Automatized/Robotized systems. Its responsible for gearshifting and clutch operation.

The automatic term stands for epicycloidal gearing. like the ZF8HP. There is no clutch, and the gears are in a different setup.

 

What makes the DCT superior to an F1 is each clutch handles different gears. 1,3,5,7 and 2,4,6,8.

So if you are shifting up or down the trans already has the gear ready to go. The engine revs to the proper RPM and the clutch disengages. This is one of the reasons it's faster than a robotized F1 box

 

This may all be true but the F1 and DCT are legally defined as automatics and really should be considered an evolution of the automatic. After all that is exactly what the companies that invented and build them had in mind from the outset, a more efficient automatic transmission without the energy and efficiency losses in conventional automatic transmissions.

 

Surprising to read there was an F-40 with the Valeo built for Agnelli even before the Mondial's got them...

There's a Ferrari F40 With a Factory Automatic Transmission - Autotrader

Where is serial number 79883 now?

It will be interesting to get a look at this IBM computer in the trunk on the Mondial's.

 

Most people define an "automatic" by the torque converter -- which is the source of much of the efficiency loss in a "slush box".
But the government isn't "people". So a box that will change gears for you is an "automatic".

So the range is full manual, Valeo auto clutch, F1 computer operated shift and clutch, DCT/Twin clutch computer operated, and torque converter automatic.
The F1 and DCT can be operated by driver input or fully automatic.

A few manufacturers, chasing efficiency standards, have started installing paddle-less DCTs in their vehicles as "automatics".
(E.g. a paddle shifter always in "auto" mode.)
Chrysler had a few models equipped with auto-only Getrag twin-clutches.

FCA was going to build Getrag boxes under license in the US, but that deal fell through.
That's probably why the Alfa Giulia has a ZF (torque converter) automatic rather than a DCT.
(Although the ZF is a very good auto, for a "slush box". )

With everyone jumping on the DCT bandwagon, there have been a number of reliability issues with some new production boxes.
So that may be another reason why Alfa (with a less than stellar reliability reputation) might have opted for the older, more stable option.

 

The Valeo ECU was pretty standard size and configuration as can be seen in the parts diagram.

https://www.ricambiamerica.com/car-diagrams/ferrari/v6-v8/mondial-group/mondial-t/electronic-clutch-controls.html

It has been some time since I worked on one but as I recall it was a very ordinary piece not taking up much space. Even though the system was a product of Valeos Detroit division I do not believe IBM had anything to do with it.

 

Looks like the ECU, #46, is fairly standard form factor. Not surprising its price is listed as "call" lol -- it probably is serious unobtanium.

 

From what I've read, the Valeo is pretty trouble free and reliable. Not sure if that's 100% correct since there aren't many around to verify this...only if F1s would have been the same.

 

Lots of info, of all types, in Hank's Valeo Registry thread.

 

Valeo is a good company and it was a simple system and virtually every one was a prototype. Valeo approached Ferrari and asked them to be their product test mule. I am sure every single system provided to Ferrari was thoroughly tested and extensive QA at every step.

The Marelli F1 systems biggest issues were service related, not the system. Far too many on the road with far too few who know and are equipped to make them work correctly. There are a few system issues as with any new technology but very few.

 

Fair point. Similar issues with DCTs going everywhere.

Mitsu doesn't even try to train their dealers to handle the Getrag.
If there's a problem, they just replace the gearbox and ship the old one off to be refurbed.

 

Ferrari started off with that attitude but as time went on I think it got too expensive. There were quite a few with issues early on and throwing complete units at the problem must have been killing them.

 

This is a Valeo ECU.
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Cost is also an variable. The cost of a single clutch automatized system and gearbox are way below the costs od an automatic.

I work in the calibration of single clutch AMT in an automaker here in Brazil, and for the engines and cars we make here, the launch/takeoff is the main advantage of epicycloidal AT geaboxes, as it is smoother. The gearshifts are equivalent, the kickdowns are way better in AMT, and it is also more fuel efficient.

 

An interesting thing is some valeo owners think they have something rare wonderful and therefore higher value. I'm thinking there is little documentation on valeo's and no parts availability though I have not thoroughly researched it, and thus, question higher values of valeo cars. The other thing I expected which seems to be closer than ever is the blurring lines between the performance of F1/DCT to automatics. The new 10spd GM/Ford unit is claimed to have many positive DCT attributes(shift speed downshift rev match) with automatic reliability and easy of repair.

 

I agree with Brian I am still learning little things about the F1. I think many current owners are much better than the original owners only because the original owners enjoyed driving them but not fixing them. If you dont fix them you really do not need to know how they function provided they are maintained correctly.

Knowing how they function helps you avoid minor problems turning into major ones.

 

I dont really agree with above about the F1.


Others can correct me if they feel diferantly but I have never had a clutch problem with my F1. So far for 15 years its been bullet proof.
Problems I have posted and others seem to be
Motor for pump most common or speedometer sensor
Actuator or hoses next
Solenoids next
Accumulator next and lastly I would say computers.
Transmission control unit, clutch control unit, etc.

As ohers have said earlier quite a few components to fail but mostly they work (so far)

 

Sorry for the late response...I will mostly certainly say that the Valeo system is something rare and wonderful, though parts are limited. Fortunately they rarely break and are electromechanical and easily rebuildable if they do.

I've read several threads where you are a proponent of SR and DH product line. I am as well, and he is a big fan of the Valeo Mondial. I suggest giving him a quick call and asking him why it's so special and it's value compared to a standard three pedal car, if you're still curious.

 

I remember years ago there was a small feature on the Valeo Mondial on the discovery channel in '93. I recorded and have it somewhere. It started out with the driver doing a burnout from a standstill and then one of the engineers was interviewed and he said they just automated the controls basically. I must have watched it a 1000 times. Ever so long ago.

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Cool, I'd like to see that.