What brand/spec fluid should be used in the F1 system?

I'm sure you're right, but as a new owner I want to ensure I do what's best for the little tyke (I was the same way for my first child). I realize it won't seize if I don't use the best fluids, but I want to do the best I can. I think the F1 system on my Spider has Mobil 1 synthetic ATF in it right now. I'd like to replace it with Tutela, but it's hard to find at a reasonable price (I think Amazon sells it for about $50 a litre with $150 shipping). I'm considering replacing the Mobil 1 with Redline D4, but I'm uncertain it's necessary.

 

Petronas Tutela CS Speed is available from Amazon for ~$55 with free shipping. Just ordered a liter yesterday to go with the 5 liters I already have.

Amazon.com: Petronas Tutela CS Speed Trans Automatic Oil - 75W 1L: Automotive

 

Understood. I believe you should go with good quality fluids. One error people make is that they assume that it specified (for example) Dexron III, they have to have a Dexron III because it is the best. WELL, Dexron is a TM and they pay to license the name/spec. Time passes and they make better fluids. Then they stop labeling as Dexron III because, well, why pay for a name that old when you can reference some newer spec that is better. People then get all hung up on finding a Dexron III and ignoring the huge number of much better fluids because they are locked onto something that was created over 20 years ago. And no, the manufacturer doesn't ever go back to an out of production car and update to the newer standards. Why would they do that.

I should add that the F1 does prefer a stable fluid if you want it to shift well before it is up to temp.

 

Beautiful. Thanks.

 

Personally i think as mentioned before any quality atf fluid that has same spec will work but if you want to read something about what may work better here is a good article

https://blog.f1-hydraulik.de/?p=221

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Ich habe den Artikel nicht verstanden, weil ich kein Deutsch spreche. Trotzdem danke.

 

If you open it in Google it will translate it into english (if you have the add-on) .. I don't speak German as well ..

Here is the article inline
Why "Liqui Moly - Central Hydraulic Oil" is better for the F1 circuit ...
Posted on May 29, 2014 by Dirk Bellmann
Hi,

since we receive inquiries about the recommended oil type in F1 systems (F1, Selespeed, Cambicorsa, Dualogic, EGear, ESG6 etc.) almost every day ... here is an explanation again. See also http://www.f1-hydraulik.de/6.html… and http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/produktdb.nsf/id/de_1127.html?Opendocument&land=DE

The circuit of the F1 is a 100% hydraulic system, so an oil is required which is optimized for "pressure" and NOT for friction.

The original oil used by the manufacturer is an ATF, i.e. an automatic transmission oil, which is actually a compromise between pressure resistance and friction resistance. This is subotimal because there is no friction with the F1, ONLY pressure!

If you now use a PURE hydraulic oil, such as the Liqui Moly - central hydraulic oil LM1127 recommended by us, fully synthetic, this has the advantage that it has perfect hydraulic properties even when cold and also when extremely hot (we are talking about oil temperatures in F1 systems of up to 130 ° C and more.) This has NO ATF on the market!

The "F1" thanks the use of this LM-Z (Liqui Moly - central hydraulic oil LM1127) with perfect "smooth running". (As it has to be.) It absolutely does NOT tend to foam, is perfect for E-valves and the entire hydraulic assembly, as it does not generate any deposits, which is what every ATF does, for example. Furthermore, the switching times improve significantly. Correct setting and venting of the F1 required!

You can even hear the "advantage" !!! The gear pump of the F1 becomes audibly quieter and runs smoother! This protects this assembly ... The pump does not have to "torment" itself and therefore lives longer. Which is apparently not in the interests of the manufacturer, because otherwise they would fill in pure hydraulic oil.

The advantage is not only noticeable and audible, but also MEASURABLE !!!

The crowning glory of the wrong oil for the F1 are some workshops that fill in pure transmission oil (for manual transmissions) ... THAT CANNOT WORK AT ALL! That "kills" every F1 system, regardless of the vehicle brand…. This oil is ONLY designed for friction resistance, not for pressures beyond the 30bar mark!

And again ... The oil of the F1 MUST be changed every 20000km, no matter which one! There is NO lifetime filling, as manufacturers are so fond of prescribing (for the German (D / A / CH) market).

Oh well ... I do not advertise the LM-Z because I get money for it from Liqui Moly or because I have a business relationship with it, but because I am completely convinced of it! Every customer has confirmed this to me so far ... Whether Ferrari, Maserati, Lamborghini or Alfa Romeo, Fiat, Lancia, Citroen & Co.

The manufacturers should fill such an oil ex works, then a lot of trouble would be avoided. And whoever fills the F1 with suboptimal oil despite these findings ... Your own fault!

You could now expand this topic “subject-specific”, but no one needs this. Because one thing is actually LOGICAL ... A 100% hydraulic system, requires 100% hydraulic oil ... and no compromise or even completely wrong oil ...

Yes, of course an F1 also works with ATF ... only there is better ... in terms of function and durability. With LM-Z you can't break anything on the F1 ... with the "wrong" oil ...

By the way ... this is extremely noticeable in the hydraulic control of direct shift transmissions ... and with every F1 for the race track anyway .... With every vehicle for everyday use ... whether Fiat or Ferrari also ...

Here is a link that deals with hydraulic oil (Wikipedia)

the key message in it ...

Hydraulic fluids must have good lubricating properties, high aging resistance and high wetting and adhesive properties. They also need a high flash point and a low pour point . For use in hydraulic systems, compatibility with seals and freedom from resins and acids are important. Further properties are a low temperature influence on the viscosity (both dynamic and kinematic viscosity), low compressibility and shear stability as well as low foaming.

The main task of hydraulic fluids is to transfer the hydraulic power from the pump to the motor or cylinder with as little loss as possible. In addition to this main task, the hydraulic fluid performs the lubrication and corrosion protection for the moving parts (piston, sliding surfaces, bearings, switching elements) and the metal surfaces of the hydraulic system. In addition, it removes impurities (for example from abrasion ), water and air as well as waste heat . (Source Wikipedia)

This results from the fact that the viscosity index according to DIN ISO 2909 for hydraulic oils is 324 (LM-Z 1127) for example, 169 for ATF and up to 160 for "normal gear oil" -> = hydraulic oil is better ...

You could continue these comparisons at will ... With regard to use in F1 systems, hydraulic oil will always have the better “cards”.

The question that arises to me ... This is also known to the manufacturers, why do they then consciously (???) tip wrong things into the system ??? Intention???

It's like this ... (to put it simply ...) the higher the viscosity index, the less the hydraulic gear pump has to "flay" to bring the system pressure to 55 bar, for example ... thus the pump and its motor last worlds longer ... the e-valves it gets better… etc. etc. With the LM-Z 1127 I have NEVER had a failure of the EV0 of the clutch control… with ATF this is the order of the day.

To put it simply…. Hydraulic oil would work in every transmission, but NEVER use a transmission oil in a hydraulic circuit !!!

 

Well, it makes sense that a fluid designed specifically for hydraulic functions would work best in the F1 system. However, the author doesn't make a case that Liquid Moly would be the best hydraulic fluid for the F1. I hope someone with more knowledge and experience than I (meaning anyone) will chime in.

 

Not sure I follow ..the whole article is about the success he cites on f1 type transmission with LM 1127 hydraulic fluid not atf

Again for the record i am not confirming or approving what is said ..he just makes a good case for something better than atf that most of us have in them

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Liqui Moly - central hydraulic oil LM1127 may be the best fluid for the F1 system. I'm just saying that the author, who has some unspecified relationship with Liquid Moly, makes a case for using fluid designed for hydraulic systems, but then only writes about one brand - Liquid Moly. He states that the results are measurable, but doesn't say how. The author presents a compelling argument, but not compelling facts. I would like to know more.

 

Just a note some Ferrari owners have switched to a pentosin 11s (green color,) as well

I would just be concerned of mixing two fluids together

Interestingly enough..Ferrari switch the power steering fluid to this i believe in the 458 mid model run

Bmw and Mercedes have been using it for their power steering, active suspension and active steering

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Maserati also always used chf11s in their f1 systems.

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Petronas Tutela CS Speed (formerly Fiat Tutela CS Speed) was specifically formulated for selespeed/F1 systems. Have been using it for 13 years with no problems.

Incidentally, the latest Ferrari maintenance recommendation for changing the F1 fluid calls for 3 year change intervals since they finally figured out it wears out, gets dirty, etc just like any hydraulic fluid. I change out half of mine annually using a turkey baster. That much does not introduce air into the system, and keeps the fluid cleaner. Not sure how easy that is to do on the V8s.

There are some strange ones in these recommendations, though, like changing catalysts and injectors at 8 year intervals. Do not even want to know how much that would cost.


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Hey Terry

Found this tonight

It even has fiat approvals .. maybe a good substitute for CS speed

I have not done the research yet

RAVENOL Gearbox Hydraulic Actuator Fluid GHA-F

http://www.ravenol.al/en/products/usage/d/Product/show/p/ravenol-gearbox-hydraulic-actuator-fluid-gha-f.html

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Dominick- That one looks great and should work just like Tutela CS Speed. Only ~$23 from Amazon including shipping, so less than half the price of CS Speed.

Amazon.com: RAVENOL J1B1010-001 Hydraulic Fluid - GHA-F Gearbox Hydraulic Actuator Fluid (1 Liter): Automotive

 

Less than 10 here

https://www.blauparts.com/clearance-closeout/oils-fluids-related/ravenol-gear-hydraulic-actuator-fluid-gha-f-1l.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjwrsGCBhD1ARIsALILBYruxili5HSKNILqVlH1IuJrrY3bK5fhIa1nfTXeXto1pj0hZzF-TZoaAhlQEALw_wcB#amcustomtabs_tabs_1

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Dominick- Yup, even better deal. I now have 7 liters of Tutela, so no need myself, but very good deal for anyone who needs it. I saved the fact sheets to hard drive.

 

How do you guys change the F1 fluid on these cars, is it even possible as a DIY?

 

A few ways to answer that

If you are just doing a annual maintenance and it hasn't been so long since a proper flush was done you can just syphon out from reservoir some fluid , replacing back the same amount and repeat a few times with some driving in between

The next level is to carefully flush from the quick connect joints that feed the ediff which is energized all the time ..again taking out fluid from the quick disconnect joint while putting fresh fluid in .. that will get you more flushed in a quicker time

The next level is using the x431 you have to energize the clutch and bleed from the two bleed screws leading to the clutch and also doing the ediff bleed function

The last and ultimate bleed/flush would be to do what stated in number 3 and also remove the actuator without removing hoses and loosening screws on it and perform the actuator bleed on the x431 or SD etc

Of course i glossed over specifics but was trying to give you some insight.. if you decide to do any of the above more info/instructions would be given etc


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Amazing, thank you @flash32 -- I was already doing a version of the first but will look into the others. Are there instructions on how to do:

(2) flush from the quick connect joints that feed the ediff which is energized all the time ..again taking out fluid from the quick disconnect joint while putting fresh fluid in .. that will get you more flushed in a quicker time

(3) using the x431 you have to energize the clutch and bleed from the two bleed screws leading to the clutch and also doing the ediff bleed function

(4) do what stated in number 3 and also remove the actuator without removing hoses and loosening screws on it and perform the actuator bleed on the x431 or SD etc

 

Liqui Moly hydraulic fluid. Two liters for a complete flush, bleed, and fill. The F1 is a hydraulic system, not an automatic transmission.

https://www.amazon.com/Liqui-Moly-Central-Hydraulic-20038/dp/B003N7AJMQ/ref=sr_1_12?dchild=1&keywords=liqui+moly+hydraulic+fluid&qid=1617056042&sr=8-12

There are two bleed valves. One on the hydraulic block next to the oil filter. The second one is behind the rear right side engine panel (4 hex 4mm bolts).

If you have an X-431 run through the gears, which will force new fluid through the actuator and hoses. Save the E-diff for last but be careful. Unless you have Stef's SEST tool to power the solenoid.

I've done this. The original fluid was ugly.

 

In the F1 system, or the gearbox?

 

@DanNE

Here are the instructions for 3 and 4 .. instructions were made for SD tool but the x431 has the same functions different name ..in 10.95 launch added ediff support and bleed for that as well ( i haven't tried it yet)

For 2 .. just follow the hoses from e-diff ( choose feed) and you will see a quick disconnect near pump .. on that disconnect you will have a bleed screw .. with engine on ( not sure if works with key "on" but it should) open bleeder and take fluid out from there .. always replacing quickly not to get too low and cause more issues .. timing is tricky .. keep track of what you take out and put back the same amount .. some put a little more fluid in reservoir before bleeding to get a little extra insurance not to run low .. in the end - since I believe you are at the right level now put in what you took out

Hope that helps

 

That’s gotta be in the gearbox. Would the F1 system even work with that thick of oil?


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Nope.