I hope Mike can get some hard evidence of what happened --- it will be interesting to see. Of course no one wants to point any fingers without knowing all the facts; but, it seems that based on Brian's and Dave's extensive experience with that particular assembly (on other 355's), short of the bolt actually breaking (from a defect) this pretty much can only be the result of some type of installation error then? If the bolt broke due to over-torque, it's still an installation error........ I'm not buying the shop's suggestion that the cam / sprocket may have seized and the belt force against the cog backed off the bolt --- the cog rotates in the direction that would tighten (not loosen) the bolt (it's RH thread, yes?), plus the belt would jump or damage itself and slip before overcoming the torque on that bolt....the cam may indeed have seized, but that didn't loosen the cog.
I have read thru this entire thread and I get the opinion you believe he is going to try and say he did nothing wrong. I know that if spent what you sepent with me I would bend over backwards to make you a happy customer, I think is 80/20 in your favor it should be a covered repair. Can't wait to see the outcome. Dave, your Gold Connector kits is top notch
Thanks, we are very pleased with the results when it is done right. I think given the opportunity to do the right thing and show 'he' is nothing more than human, most everyone would step up and correct a mistake. The biggest hurdle to this one is setting up a situation where everyone is comfortable and allow a person enough room where it is not confrontational in nature. That is a difficult order to fill given the circumstances. "If it was him, he'll fix it", that says enough for me to feel this could very well have a good ending. Everyone makes mistakes, some extremely stupid. Its how one deals with these mistakes that is a judge of character. A business owner that takes the responsibility for an employees mistake.... lets not jump to judgement on that owner yet, its very possible its not the same guy that did the work and his opening statement is a good start. There is much more to the story that we do not yet know. I suspect I know what happened but.... a guess is worth nothing.
Taking a break to get the SRI thing going, that has taken 14 hrs a day and my 'employees' said anymore than that and they wanted to get paid...lameass 'I am entitled' thinking! Thirty five years dodging Dr's finally caught up this year. "When was your last Dr. visit?"... "I had a hernia fixed in the early 70's"... Wrong Answer! After that and I still dont know her first name! Stop by when you come back to town, I miss the visits and wondered what happened to you.
This is like pushing against a string! In the interest of just getting it fixed, as it's been a month already, I proposed the following: shop opens and fixes 100% whatever is wrong. work inspected by third party to assure quality. Shop eats all labor and 50% of parts, I pay 50% of parts at cost, documented with receipts and photos, and old parts in a box, regardless of "fault" shop warrantees work for 5,000 miles. shop owner comes back and says he'll eat labor and all parts if his fault, i eat parts if not his fault. Says 5,000 miles too much, could take me 5 years to drive that much (who can tell, he's had the car longer than me!!!!). Now I know that parts in this case could be a whole new engine, so that seems asinine. I thought my suggestion was pretty damn fair. I'm almost ready to stop being nice. The more I read from you guys, the more I am 100% that this was his fault, and my offer to eat 50% of parts was insanely nice. I'm stewing.
Mike - I feel so bad for you. I wish there was something I could do. Please don't get yourself into "its the principle" discussion as that is just going to cost you more of the driving season. This whole thing sucks and thats the beginning and end of it. Wait for some indication of cause before getting yourself defensive. You may very well need to be defensive, but no use in prolonging it. You've got a crowd praying for you and waiting to help if we can.
. I've seen loss of torque from this kind of thing all the time especially with wheels coming off racecars.
That's funny. Reminds me of a famous so cal mechanic. I was taught by one of his competators to easily identify his work by the mass quanity of silicone used. As Sienfeld would say...."not that there is anything wrong with that...."
I appreciate your frustration... Sounds like you will be able to eventually reach an agreement on the other aspects, but, asking for a 5K warranty is unreasonable. There are just too many random problems that could occur over that amount time --- things that are related to that part of the engine, but would not be a result / fault of the service done. It seems like the guy is trying diligently to work something out with you, and if you both keep negotiating reasonably, I'll bet the two of you can arrive at a mutually acceptable arrangement. Back off on the 5K warranty, though --- no shop owner in his right mind can possibly agree to that --- and if pushed, it could undo the progress you are making with him. Someone wise once said, "It's only a fair compromise if both parties feel as though they've given up something."
I think think you hould forget about the 5,000 mile warranty, that is unreasonable on your part, and instead just request that he repairs this at his cost (if proven he is to blame) and simply have him guarantee his work instead.
Mike, How long have you owned the car / how many miles? What I am getting at, does anyone currently involved know the 'real' condition of the engine and a first hand, complete seamless service history? Not 'hearsay from a sales ad or a PPI' but first hand history. If I understand this correctly, the car is fairly new to you and this is the first time this shop has worked on the car for you. A blanket warranty on an unknown is pushing it pretty far. Does this shop have a Long history with this model where they should know all of the intricacies of it and all of the little known failure points? Was this a budget service based on a low price or a 'Real Service' done without hands tied? There are too many variables involved. Some of this should be kept private at this point, PM me if you want. This is the time to stay the high road, loose it and involve lawyers and everyone but the lawyers loose. Both of you from the sounds of it are far too close to throw in the towel at this point. I like the fact he keeps coming back with full P&L if found at fault, that is quite telling.
Well, a friend made a great suggestion, and it led to a deal. I had my attorney on notice, too! I offered to the shop that they repair it to top running order on a timely basis, and warranty THEIR work for one year or 5k miles -- with another top indy shop to serve as arbiter with sole diagnostic discretion if there is another issue in that time. In exchange for that, I pick up 50% of parts at proven and fair cost up to a reasonable dollar cap. It was a completely fair and honorable deal Rest assured, if he messes with me, not only will I sue him, but I will publish all the emails with no names deleted, so the community will know what and who happened here. I want my car back, but I have a Dino and a Mustang and will be driving an R8 V10 Spider and California in Europe over the next week, so my driving joneses will be met! It seems like, when pushed a little and confronted with clear evidence that the problem came from a mechanic's error, the guy did the right thing, once offered a slight concession for both his pride and his pocketbook. I have no desire to inflict pain or losses on an honest and honorable working man, but they have to prove that's what they are! Hopefully, my toolikit and other unmentionables will still be with the car upon its return. As to history, I had the complete maintenance record from previous owners (two, evidently including Don Johnson of Miami Vice for a couple of weeks from new), and confirmed it with the LA factory shop which did 90% of the work, and the indy who did some too out in LA. As to the major just done, it was open season... otherwise how do you spend $22k plus?? I think I got ridden a bit, and the mechanic got sloppy. That's life in don't DIY land!!
Glad to hear you came to an agreement. As for your toolkit - why didn't you simply remove it from your car and lock it up at home?
I am so sorry to hear of your frustrations, because I dealt with an all too similar situation with my 355 back in 2004. It really leaves a bitter taste in your mouth, but I think you've probably found about the best amicable solution that is out there. After living in NYC with a 355 for over 10 years and almost 40k miles now and after much strife with repairs, it's taken me a long time to find a great, dependable independent mechanic with extensive 355 experience. I wish you the best of luck and hope you get your car back in working order very soon! Hit me up for a drive when you get the car back. Dave H and Brian K, It's really great to have you guys around - we all thank you
Well, I guess that worked out.... BTW, remind me never to piss you off -- LOL Seriously, Mike --- there's nothing wrong with aggressively fighting for yourself if you are in the right. Sounds as though you are satisfied with the outcome --- though I'm sure you would have preferred the whole thing never have happened in the first place.
I think you mean to say "Brian C." ? Anyone ever wonder why these two gents (and a few others out there) usually have a waiting list to get your car into their shops??? I'll give you a hint -------- IT AIN'T BECAUSE THEIR SHOPS ARE TOO SMALL !!!!!!
I've been away in Europe, driving a 2011 (or whatever) Audi R8 Spider. Jeez, what a car! I guess their paddle gearbox is about as good as they get, but it still sucks compared to a stick, particularly when trying to back up a dead-end steep, narrow cobblestone street that's wet, and I guess the the torque converter just couldn't handle the horses and kept stalling. There's just no substitute for an artfully-applied left foot! I am hoping the shop picks up the 355 today and gets to work. We signed an amicable agreement, and he will warranty his work for a year. The fact that he agreed to all this indicates to me that he fully accepted in faith as well as in writing, that the slipped bolt was the culprit. I should have the car back in about 3 weeks, and I intend to do some driving. What an incredible waste of time and effort, just to get back to where I was before! But, I intend to stick to my guns and make sure it gets completed properly. As I have said, people with the resources and temperaments to own these cars don't tend to be the type to roll over and play dead when a shop tries to shrug its shoulders and walk away. When this is all done, I'll post the outcome and probably the shop name...
So, the shop agrees after disassembly it was the cam bolt backing out, which had to be because of improper torquing. Says that all exhaust valves need to be replaced and two intake valves, and that almost immediate shutdown helped minimize damage. Wonder how expensive this repair would be if I was paying for it? Hope he does it right this time!
Some shops have a hard time admitting mistakes ........... it is bad enough this happened and much worse if they tried to skirt responsibility.
