What constitutes 'giving back a position'?

The rules say that you cannot gain an unfair advantage. This thread should be marked ****spoiler****

 

Good Question. Right or wrong, I've always taken it to mean the full length of the opposition's vehicle.

 

Do you have a link to the rules?

In the past commentators have tended to say only that a driver gaining a position by 'taking a shortcut' must give it back or suffer a penalty at the hands of the stewards. I don't recall ever hearing them suggest there might be some other sort of advantage gained that would incur a penalty.

It was interesting that when interviewed RD said that immediately after the incident he'd spoken to Charlie Whiting, the race director, whose opinion was that LH had done what was required. Obviously the stewards (or someone high up in the FIA?) thought differently.

 

Actually the commentators on ITV talked about just this a couple of races back. I dont have a link to the rules but I do know that it says something about gaining an unfair advantage which Lewis clearly did.

 

lewis cleary did not! He gave back the position and was the same distance from Kimi before he was pushed out of the Chicane!

 

I believe if you let the driver pass you back and have him traveling faster than you {pulling away} that constitutes "giving back the position} as long as he didn't come from 3 seconds back, blow through a chicane and end up in front of you.

 

you mean inches away next to him from the front wing?

i cant see the replay as currently i've only got 56k connection...

 

I agree. Hopefully so will the FIA and the win go back to LH on appeal...

 

You'll excuse me for being sceptical but I like to see those things in black and white, or be informed by someone who really knows and understands the detail, which you clearly don't.

 

from slow mo replay, He surrendered the lead to KR by less the 1m, hardly giving up a position. He would have got him had he been patient, but as usual the bloke made a bad "racing" judgment. Thats inexperience showing through im afraid.

 

this is a good explanation.

 

pushed out? did you see the same race? kimi had position and is allowed to continue his racing line into the next corner. it is up to hamilton to make the adjustment. kimi did not go wide or push anyone. hamilton drag raced him almost all the way up the straight and barely yielded position just before the turn.

 

I do wheel2wheel tintop race at an extremely lowlevel. you can give up the position and still have an unfair advantage. It all happened so fast I watched it live so no slo-mo replay. So hypothetically lets stay LH blows chicane on KR left and they drag race the straight. LH looks to be be trying to go around KR on the left outside before the next righthander. LH baits KR to drift left to cut off LH and disturb the air. LH knows he must give up position by the rules. KR is now midtrack. LH lets off gas tucks in behind KR gets a draft tow is not techincally legal, then slingshots to the inside line. KR now hot has to late brake LH has the inside early turn-in with both cars now even with none clearly owning the corner. LH does the early turn-in that causes the natural drift out pushing KR out wide now LH is in the lead. LH relinguished the postion but not the advantage of originally blowing the chicane. He used the mistake to bait an opponent. Many things has to happen like drawing KR wide and to late brake so KR could not pull the over under on him.

 

This is absolute bull****, Lewis won the race, Kimi spun out taking the win away from him is completely unacceptable and IMO is ruining the integrity of the sport.

 

A driver is not allowed to over take the car in front of him by avoiding a chicane. If you do, it's a drive through penalty, exactly what the vodaphone fairy received.

Watch if yourself..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rd2n1HxkRy8

 

Giving back a position? Well technically, before the corner (since we are being so technical) LH pulled out to be side by side with KR. He then turned in wide....found the real estate to be less than prime and took the escape route. Finding himself ahead of KR, he let KR pass him, set himself up and went round to the other side of KR, taking the inside line to turn one and came from behind KR once again to take position out of turn one.

In my opinion, he owned KR because he basically run circles round him.....and we can't have that now can we? All those who lament that drivers don't do the Arnoux-Villeneuve thing anymore....well there you go, you can't. I hate to admit it, but I am starting to see what Montoya was talking about.

 

Vodaphone fairy? Wow.

 

The question is: Could he have done the Arnoux-Villeneuve thing if he hadn't cut the corner? The answer is NO, as he would have had to slam on the brakes after his overly optimistic try on overtaking Kimi, costing him loads of time.

 

If Hami' were to brake as to NOT be forced into the chicane, he would have been further back than right on Kimi's tail. So to give back a position is not the same as giving back the advantage made by cutting the chicane.

Pretty simple to me.

G

 

+1

G

 

One thing is for sure, that was not overly optimistic. Overly optimistic is something that Coulthard does to Wurz....or Sato does to Schumacher. Kimi responded to LH challenge at the bus stop by closing the door into the 2nd half of the bus stop. LH responded by letting Kimi pass on the pit straight and taking the inside line in spectacular fashion. It was more sport than the whole Valencia race could produce.

 

I don't believe there are any rules written as to acting in anticipation as to whether a move to pass is going to result in being forced off the course. Its Hamilton's responsibility to make sure that his navigation works and when he doesn't make it work, he is supposed to relinquish any advantage he has gained. By your reasoning he should go back to the split that existed prior to the chicane. I think that split = rapidly-decreasing-and-Kimi-got-no-chance!

BTW, I still remember the day you and Rick blasted down PCH out of CC...my heart still bleeds a little remembering the sound!

 

The Arnoux-Villeneuve was one of the greatest moment in F1. Today was a farce: LH screwed up, but he should have been punished for the next GP, not demoted fom P1 at Spa.