What defines pre-Citroen era?

Citroên era? That's when Maserati, inter alia,

- finally adopted independent rear suspension for their road cars;

- built their first mid-engined road cars;

- dropped conservative designs;

- got fabulous brakes...

...right?

 

But your opinion might be biased, eh Gabriel? Mine is, too, I suppose.

 

I adore pre-Citroën era Maseratis, but yes, I think Boras, Meraks and Khamsins were the zenith of roadgoing Maseratis. They were the last Maseratis to really compete on equal terms with cars made in Maranello, Newport Pagnell etc.

 

... and yes, I suppose I'm biased too

 

... well, thinking twice about it, I suppose Maserati is, again, a real competitor to Aston Martin...

 

Dumb thread IMHO. Just enjoy the model Model Maseratis you like. There are plenty of nice cars before during and after the "Citroen" era. Discussions like this leads to divisiveness and that's never great for enthusiasts of the marque. Maserati already has enough problems in that department.

You want a simple definition? Those with LHM and those without. But really, that was up to Ing. Giulio Alfieri. He loved the system and expressed as much with it being used in his designs. End of story.

Buy Mark Sonnery's forthcoming book to learn more.

 

What does Citroen-era mean anyway?

Yes, some parts were taken from the Citroen parts-bin. Why? Because they were the best at the time.
Just like the gearboxes came from ZF.

The cars themselves had, IMO, very little to nothing to do with Citroen, who themselves borrowed from the Maserati parts-bin too.

The Maserati's that were designed and/or produced under Citroen ownership of Maserati were of 100% Maserati DNA, and there was very little to nothing that changed in that respect.

Double wishbone suspensions, Italian V-6 and V-8 engines, rows of Webers, Italian-designed coachwork, to mention a few.

Doesn't look like Citroen mandated anything, rather just footed the bill and got an engine out of the deal, and, of course, prestige by the boatload.

Andre Citroen, founder of the marque, was a Dutchman. No-one would dream of calling a Citroen a Dutch marque, it is as French as French comes. (No Daf-jokes please!)

 

I couldn't resist replying

What does Citroen-era mean? It means the time when Citroen got a boatload of prestige and Maserati got sh*t load of cr*p in return. At least that is my opinion.

How many Ferrari fans would have liked Ferrari to be owned by Peugeot? How much would a Ferrari-Peugeot hybrid cost these days? Why not ask Ferrari owners what they think about that... would they like it?

I think the Maserati-Citroen era is a horrific era that dilluted the brand and we are left with maserati-citroen hybrid cars that cost peanuts and diminished the brand.

I also have to listen to all those citroen morons who try to explain to me that their car is a Maserati... *puke*.

And one horrific era was superseded by the next horrific era: the DeTomaso-era.. which brought us the most unreliable and ugly looking things ever made. Junk that targeted the American market (and failed miserably), when DeTomaso himself siphoned money out of Maserati and into his pockets and into his own brand of cars.

The two black eras in Maserati history...

 

Blue, would you mind posting a picture of the transaxle in your Merak? It might help clear up a question Norbye's book raised years ago.

 

GLB, unfortunatelly when last year I redid some parts of the car (gearbox, aircon etc), I didn't take pictures of the gearbox internals, because back then I wasn't aware that there are questions about it. I can only take photos of the thing on bolted on the car, but those aren't helpful. In the next overhaul I'll make sure to take some photos of the internals.


Facts I've learned so far:

- Internals are clearly marked as ZF
- Casing does NOT have an official ZF tag (like all ZF gearboxes have, as far as I know)
- Officially Maserati never put ZF gearboxes in the Merak

I can only guess that Maserati ordered OEM gearboxes. It is also possible that these gearboxes where ordered OEM by Citroen, but my car's production started in late 1982 and ended in early 1983 and Citroen was long gone by 1975!! Thats 7 years difference.

 

You really need to read Mark's forthcoming book.

Ing. Giulio Alfieri was there before Citroen took over and was not forced to adopt any of their technology. It's just that he preferred it. Get mad at him if you like. He did a lot of great work at Maserati and then later some at Lamborghini as well.

It's also worth noting that you own a Maserati designed during the Citroen years and then modified by DeTomaso as well as a newer one wholly designed during the Detomaso years though it was produced after he sold out to Fiat.

I guess they're not such crap that you won't put your money out to buy them eh?

 

Veeery wise words.........

 

I think pictures of the case would still be helpful. Are the brakes inboard or outboard? It seems unlikely that DeTomaso would have shouldered the expense of a transmission redesign for the tail end of production, though "logic" and "De Tomaso" probably don't go together. The gear set could have been made by ZF. I know of several gearboxes on US cars that have Getrag gear sets; it would not be surprising if ZF had had a similar arrangement with Citroen. I noticed that the SS manual still shows the same gear ratios as for the early Merak, for what that's worth.

The SM was gone, but Citroen was still around, even if owned by Peugeot. They could have provided enough spares for the relatively tiny De Tomaso/GEPI-Merak production. Given the rapid disappearance of the SM, it wouldn't even be surprising if there were quite a few left-overs, or if Maserati still had stock.

Norbye's comment that later cars received ZF gearboxes has been repeated often, but so far I haven't seen any corroboration, and apparently your very late car helps confirm that it never happened.

Although I've always liked the looks of the Bora and Merak, part of the reason I bought them is the technical novelty of the Citroen system. The later watered-down version isn't as interesting to me.

 

Foot in mouth syndrone?

I think a better comparison for Citroen and Maserati is Tata buying Land Rover and Jaguar.
This marriage has enabled investment in these in these two companies like never before and product is all the better for it, in an era when investment is as crucial as ever. I think Citroen era Maseratis are just as good if not better than before the marriage [ with much more modern chassis layouts made possible by the new injection of investment money ] The constant put downs on Citroen, an advanced forward thinking company in the sixties, is not really merited in my honest opinion. In this Citroen era, they produced some of the most beautiful and advanced road going Maseratis of any time ...Fuel crisis sealed their joint destiny much as it effected many performance car companies at the time


Julian

 

well, sure someone had to sign and agree to have all that cr*p put in Maserati cars.

well, my Merak SS has no citroen stuff in it, it took me two years to find the perfect late Merak. So I'm happy with that. Definitely not crap. Beautiful and reliable! (driven all over Europe with it).

my Ghibli GT is crap, its junk in all its glory... ugly and unreliable. At least mine has only ~20,000km, so its supposetly its a bit more reliable than the rest, but I wouldn't trust it for anything more than short drives. I accept it for what it is.. junk hastingly put together. Like all the rest of the biturbos.

how could a company of true great cars (from the 250F, 3500GT, the Ghibli I, etc) fall so low as to create the biturbo?

I'm glad Top Gear trashed one, in one of their episodes

 

Julian, I don't agree, because the latest Land Rover or Jaguar does not have awful spare parts from a Tata Nano, or I hope so anyway

Not to mention that in England it was quite a cultural "blow" when an Indian company took over. The collony strikes back! A friend of mine calls his Jaguar "Rahul" since then.

 

So lets take a look at what "other" cars was citroen creating at that time, and lets just think how the "greatness" of citroen is something that we want associated with our cars:

Ladies and gentlemen, may I present the Citroen Ami:
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

If you want to lie to yourself that's your neurosis.

None the less you bought a Ghibli II. So you're self admittedly full of sh*t on this topic.

So far I'm not hearing your dislike of it in spite of all of your precedent protestations about what a pos it was.

Your Merak WAS designed by the same engineer that favored the LHM system. Onlythe brakes are different.

I really think you need to get a Khamsin, the ultimate in Citroen-Maserati experience. LOL

 

This has ZERO to do with the discussion.

 

I admit that the Ghibli is sh*t and I own one, how more real can it get? I know what I'm talking about, these are not fantasies.

When DeTomaso was building the Ghibli, most of them came out of the factory nearly or completely broken, they had to fix them right outside in a make-shift repair shop, before shipping them to customers.

In addition, DeTomaso favored some clients over others, so he didn't even bother to fix many cars, so they got delivered to the dealers in a non-working state! The dealer had to fix the car before delivery to the customer.

Should I talk about reliability? I've grown up with a Biturbo and a Ghibli Cup, both owned by my best friend. 6 months out of the whole year both cars where in the garage getting something fixed.

I'm realistic. If you think the Ghibli is reliable then I'm sorry but you are delussional.

 

They did far worse. They got FIAT.

 

why not? don't you like the origins of the cr*p hydraulics?

and if these hydraulics are so good, then why doesn't the entire world use them after so many years? hmmm let me guess..

1) too complex, even for citroen engineers
2) too unreliable, never lasted long term
3) when there is a problem, it causes total catastrophy

yeah, lovely technology by citroen... what can I say...

 

A Khamsin would not be enough. He needs a Bora so he can enjoy the hydraulic adjustments on the pedals as well as the rest of the LHM system.

 

You guys are looking for a fight? Okay! You got it!

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5G3law3R0x4[/ame]