What do concours judges do about Dinol???

As senior FCA Judge, as well as judging many other events, there are no points removed for not having Dinol, and typically, most judges would expect a Concours car to have pristine suspension and undercarriage. Having Dinol that would attract dust and dirt which you can't clean would in fact be points off, and would be considered a "lack of preparation" . The exception would be in a preservation class, where, the absence of Dinol would seem wrong. A kind of double standard, but judges today are so used to seeing spotless suspensions, that is what is expected. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that's the way it is.
Gary Bobileff

 

But it is my understanding that in FCA events, dirt does not matter, only originality, condition and function of major accessories. Would not dirty Dinol be a part of the originality aspect?

Dave

 

I was wondering this just recently as well.

My question arose when I was undecided whether I should clean the upper spare tire compartment in my 328, it had dinol overspray. I asked should I clean this or is this "expected" overspray.
Much like Chevy's and the overspray of the valve covers should be expected. Granted this is not America Concours but I still wondered....

I contacted 2 people that have judged Concours; one voted to clean it off, the other person said they would leave it. Currently, I left it but I probably will remove it after this Sunday's Concours.

I recently removed all the dinol from my rear wheel wells, and re-sprayed them with a product that is an exact match to the lower rocker panels. (see "refurbishment of wheel well" thread in 328 section) Looks beautiful. Not dirty and grimey like before...

I'm gonna ask some of the judges this Sunday on their take.

I agree with Bob that so many cars are spotless through and through...

Here is my spare tire compartment that I was referring too... If dinol is a "anti-rust" why is it on Fiberglass?? Hence, the wells and the upper portion of spare tire compartment.

Thank you.
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My 88 GTS front trunk does not look like yours. It is all black plastic, none of that brown appearance. Is that undercoating? And if so, you are right .. doesn't belong there.

 

Yes, its the dinol !!

I feel this stuff was so haphazardly applied that it probably varied greatly from car to car.

I'd like to see a pic..

Don't want to change the direction of this thread b/c I'd like to hear others input too.

 

Totally off topic, but Gary - as a Senior FCA Judge and sponsor here at F-Chat, how is
it that you only have 89 posts in all these years???? I mean this in a NICE way - you
must know stuff that so many here would totally want to hear and respect.... how
many of us normal schlubs with F-cars get THOUSANDS of posts in when a noted expert
like you is so bloody SILENT "after all these years"?

Keep doing what you do. But POST MORE

Jedi

 

Sometimes I just have nothing to say!
Gary Bobileff

 

This was my understanding too. But apparently not all FCA judged events are judged by the rules posted on the FCA website.

For example, the judging at the event we attended earlier this summer was I believe under the auspices of the FCA but the judging criteria was created by some group out of San Francisco. The criteria stressed cleanliness, not originality. That's fine but it's completely opposite of what is stressed on the FCA website.

Concourse judging is so inconsistent I have determined that the whole thing is a joke. No big deal but when you see how seriously the judging staff take themselves it is hard for me not to snicker. The emperor is wearing no clothes and I see his silly looking underwear.

-F

 

All the FCA events I've participated in as a judge here in the northeast have followed FCA guidelines, and although originality, condition, and functionality are the top priority, bringing a dirty (within reason) or otherwise neglected car to a concours is not, IMO, in keeping with the spirit of a concours. I've seen owners show up with filthy interiors, books and tools scattered all over the place, etc. If it rains, then naturally everyone is cut some slack...

Furmano, if you think some FCA events are a joke (and the one you attended in SF seems to have got it all wrong), then you should experience the judging at Greenwich, or Lime Rock, or New Hope or Buckingham, and any AAA event for that matter. Its all about "visual and overall impression" at these events; originality is thrown out the window. I suppose this is understandable because its a rare judge that can look at a Porsche, BMW, Jag, and Ferrari side by side and know which car is correct. Not to mention the limited time judges have to even look over a car...

My own take on Dinol is if it came out of the factory that way, then it is part of the original character of the car. If it was applied inconsistently, or even haphazardly on a particular day, then that's part of the hand-built nature of the marque. Leave it alone.

Here's a pic of the spare wheel well from my '86 328. You can even see and feel the brushstrokes in some places.
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Len,

The the whole thing becomes a joke because there is so much inconsistency.

When I see and hear about judges, who are the equivalent to referees in a football game, make up stuff on the fly, I just want to pull my hair out. I know, referees get it wrong every now and then but when they do, the higher ups don't just stand there like deer in the headlights, action is taken and a rule book is consulted.

The event I attended, in Colorado, was probably not an official FCA event. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. But it did have aspects of FCA (judges were wearing FCA badges). However, the rules, which I can't seem to find right now, were rules from some group from San Fran. Not sure why they were used. But even those rules were so incomplete I realized they needed rewriting from the start.

As I mentioned before, this set of rules was coming from the standpoint of cleanliness, not originality. That's fine, just don't think you can get both because it's pretty much impossible to get both.

I guess I suffer fools lightly and this foolish behavior drives me up the wall. When little ole' me can spot serious structural flaws in concours judging, why can't someone who has a lot more experience spot it too, and then do something about it?

-F

 

I agree about inconsistency; here's an excerpt from the International Ferrari Judging Guidelines, which I received along with my ticket to this weekend's Garden State Ferrari Fall Festival:

"10. The key purpose of the concours is to promote the preservation of the Ferrari in its original state...with minor emphasis on cosmetics...Over-cleanliness is unnecessary..."

Then again, the guidelines also state that cars will be judged by a three-person team; I've never had that luxury when judging!

 

I can not comment on the smaller events, but the larger FCA events are very regulated. Events such as the Ferrari Nationals, Cavallino and FCA judging in Monterey. They are the largest of events, with typically, the best and most knowledgeable judges selected to judge. Every judge is asked to follow a 4 page form, listing out categorical areas, and points deduction recommendations, along with maximum points allowed to be deducted in each category. This four page form is used at all of the above events. Entrants consider getting their car judged serious business. Judges consider their judging skills and ability to remember what is proper and authentic serious business, as well. Items of contention come down to the brake reservoir cap on a Lusso being either blue, or painted over at the Factory in black. Which answer is correct? There was never a Lusso owner's book with photo's for reference, nor a parts book giving these answers. The judges reputations are sometimes put on the line, as a discrepancy such as this might be the deciding 1/2 point difference determining which car will be either 1st place or a Platinum car. The qualified judges can only depend on their power of recollection ,and previous experience in the field, as to the correct answer, as no printed matter will help.

But there are smaller events where the judging becomes highly subjective. I have had several experiences with teaming up with one judge in particular who is extremely hard on the cars , to the point where the entrants are so angry that they refuse to come back. This is completely wrong. Recently, a "last year's best of show winner' was rejudged this year by this other judge and his associate, and that 99 point car ended up with a 92 point score, with no changes to the car, but the lead judge in question remarked that he found 2 or 3 tiny spots of flawed paint on the underside of the car, flaws about the size of a grain of salt. AN 7 POINT DEDUCTION? Cruel and unusual punishment. I think this judge was completely wrong, and WAY too harsh. It's instances like that, which give judging a bad name. I want no part of that. Let's face it, with out entrants entering their cars to be judged, there is no judging.
Gary Bobileff

 

Personally I make my self happy. If I want to be able to drive my 308 up the Westside Highway in the Summer without it over heating I cut a square hole in the nose trunk cover, redo the radiator ducting and trim the hole with a grill. Ferrari saw what I did and copied my modifications in later cars.

When I take my cars to a concourse I hand wash them and drive them to the event. They don't overheat. They're plumbed with an on board fire systems. They have air filtration even if they originally didn't. Their valve trains, engine bearings, etc are as good as they can be.

I redo their seats so I am comfortable. I move their pedals so my feet don't cramp. I replace their lighting so I can see at night. I usually can make these modifications without damage. I've switched the position of Fuel Gauges and Oil PSI gauges so I could see the Oil PSI Gauge. I'm less worried about running out of fuel than oil PSI. Some times I win a prize, sometimes I don't.

Life goes on.

 

Speaking of Lussos............an owner I did not know before sat with me for breakfast one morning at FCA nationals this year and during our discussions mentioned he got dinged for the color of a part that he changed in the last 12 months because he got dinged on it last year! I've done just a little judging locally using FCA guidelines and I have come to appreciate how difficult it is to be consistent and how difficult it is to know all you need to about originality, even on fairly modern cars. When it comes to classics, I can see why not that many show up at the nationals. It's just too tough and arbitrary and some of the minor modifications that might make a car much more useable get deductions. I was at the Colorado Grand finish last week and the selection of Ferrari classics there greatly surpassed what I saw in Elkhart Lake this summer. I don't have all the answer to this dilemma but it seems like something should be done to accomadate these classics and their mods. It might also be wise to make a list of parts on classics where experts just don't know what is correct and either ignore them or consider different part colors for instance as all being correct.

Dave

 

The owner of the Lusso should get copies of the judging sheets, which are available to all the owners having their cars judged, a few weeks after the event. Then there is a record of this sort of thing readily available at the time of judging if there is a question. Believe me, the judges do not want this type of controversy or inconsistency.

George

 

Sine Dinol was a Dealer applied-OR-a "depot"{either Port Elizabeth, or Port Long Beach(I think VPC is now in Ventura, in 1980s, all sjhipping to CA was through Port LB)-and it was not consistent in either who got what, but what got how much...some looked like they were dipped in honey while others only had a light dusting on only 1 side!}, and NOT A FACTORY-asd IN ITALY-assembly line, or post production FACTORY application, well...it is clear......

Since this is NOT a Factory issued applicae, it is a non-original item as stereos, wheels etc...but, largely considered a non-issue, in so far as if it is there, it came that WAY-filth is NOT supposed to be a factor-despite subjective leanings to the contrary.

Again, as pror posters have chided: refer to the rules Books...

 

Following the recent FCA National at Elkhart Lake I posted these guideline sheets in another thread.

Since Platinum applies to all cars within the class above the point threshold it is OK to have some deductions. An arguable point is that the only time any car is really 100 points is the day a complete restoration is done because from that day onward it is in a state of deterioration.

What I find important is if the judging finds issues that the owner is not already aware of. That the judges might not find all the discrepancies I already knew about is nice. That they found a few I was unaware of was news.

As the owner/presenter it is your responsibility to have any back-up materials to show how what you are presenting is correct. At the FCA National Heinrich and Marcel had 2 suitcases of supporting documentation showing how their restoration of the yellow 375 was totally accurate. As the owner of the more recent F-cars do your print-out of the Heritage Certificate or from the owner's section on the Ferrari website do a screen shot of the "My Garage" listing on the car.

For the OP's question on the Dinol. If it is that important to you that the Dinol is there you have to make an active decision whether to leave the original old stuff on or not. If you are looking for the assurance of class winning presentation then remove the old dirty stuff and make a fresh (clean) application. If you want to go even further take photos of the original Dinol applications then after shots of how you applied the new stuff exactly the same way.

Jeff
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Dinol was applied in Maranello, not the United States.

 

I do not know who or what group you speak of but it is obvious the were not doing it according to FCA guidelines. I am from the SF area and have no idea who you speak of. Applying your frustrations to shows done under FCA rules and guidelines is using an inappropriatly broad brush. FCA has an ongoing program to bring common sense and consistancy to judging and should be applauded for it.

 

While this is true, it takes away from the effort when judges follow some other arbitrary guidelines while wearing their FCA hats (or badges).

BT

 

FCA members do a bad job judging an unsanctioned concours and it reflects badly on the FCA concours program? Thats like being critical of MLB for the bad officiating of a pickup game that Ricky Henderson was playing in.

 

When Ricky shows up for poor officiating of little league games wearing his MLB cap it does reflect poorly on MLB. The impression I got was that there were some judges wearing FCA judge badges that used some other form of criteria for judging.

 

The form posted by Jeff is the one used at the event I attended. It is created by the International Advisory Council for Preservation of the Ferrari Automobile (IAC/PFA) located at 832 Church Street, San Francisco, CA 94114.

Based on the FCA webpage, it the organization that FCA uses to create the judging criteria.

My problem with the criteria in this form is it stresses condition, not originality. That's fine but item 10 listed on the concours page (http://www.ferrariclubofamerica.org/concours_guidelines.cfm), actually the opening statement before they revamped the page, states:

"10. The key purpose of the concours is to promote the preservation of the Ferrari in its original state. Therefore, the primary focus of the judging will be on originality, authenticity and condition with minor emphasis on cosmetics."

Based on the judging criteria, that's NOT the main purpose of the concours. As I have said before, if they want to judge based on condition that's fine. If they want to judge based on originality that's fine. But it's pretty hard to have both.

-F