What Does This Spark Plug Reveal | FerrariChat

What Does This Spark Plug Reveal

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Lawrence Coppari, Dec 9, 2009.

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  1. Lawrence Coppari

    Lawrence Coppari Formula 3

    Apr 29, 2002
    2,192
    Kingsport, TN
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    Lawrence A. Coppari
    #1 Lawrence Coppari, Dec 9, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    This plug is from a track car after probably a dozen 2-3 day track events plus another 7500 miles of ordinary driving. The engine is turbocharged at 16 psig. I run pump gas. The other plugs look pretty much the same. It is not a Ferrari engine and has high mileage on its clock. The engine runs well and has good power but there appears to be a buildup on the plugs.

    What is my plug telling me? Too rich, too lean, is it happy?
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  2. BIGHORN

    BIGHORN In Memoriam

    Sep 18, 2006
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    JOHN F KELLY
    Plug looks like you are running very lean. Check for flecks of aluminum and the insulator becoming unglued. If its as lean as it looks, you may be headed for burned pistons and/or stuck valves.

    THere used to be a site where you could send pics (champion?) and get expert opinions. I dont think pics would show any melting of the insulator bonding though.

    I am not a plug expert, the above is based on running a motorcycle at Bonneville. I assume it tranfers somewhat to cars.
     
  3. KKRace

    KKRace Formula 3

    Aug 6, 2007
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    Too hard to tell anything except about the fuel mixture etc because of the way the plug was used and more important how it was run the last few minutes before you took it out. The crust on the electrode looks a little excessive but hard to tell looking at a photo. I don't see any little shiney balls of aluminum on the porclean or anything really ugly. http://www.dragstuff.com/techarticles/plug-pictures.html

    Look down inside the plug for the burn ring. Here are some good pics of plugs with the metal cut off around the insulator so you can see the burn ring. To really read the plugs you need to put in new plugs and do a plug cut. Run the car wide open and then cut the ignition before letting the car get back to idle and coast to a stop and pull the plugs. Not sure how much your turbo is going to like that?
     
  4. GrndLkNatv

    GrndLkNatv Formula Junior

    Sep 13, 2006
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    #4 GrndLkNatv, Dec 9, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2009

    Looks like it could be running lean but I have another question, what fuel are you running in the car? Does it contain MMT? What additives are in the fuel? My guess is your running leaded fuel and it's ash deposits from additives in the fuel, in other words it's running fine just need to clean your plugs or put in new ones.
     
  5. tatcat

    tatcat F1 World Champ
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    rick c
    lean. check your timing. maybe predetonation.
     
  6. PV Dirk

    PV Dirk F1 Veteran

    Jul 26, 2009
    5,401
    Ahwatukee, AZ
    The crusty buildup has been explained to me before as additives as above poster noted. I'm going to go in a different direction because my comments don't cost anything. Plugs don't look to bad to me. Maybe a bit lean but not too bad. I usually like to see a bit of black at the base of the electrode. If it's a newer car, they are all designed to run lean. I give it a double thumbs up and a high five.
     
  7. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
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    Nov 11, 2003
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    The plugs look pretty good. I would say that the white crusty stuff on the electrodes is from additives in the fuel of some kind. Were these brand new plug before the run, as the center electrode is pretty rounded, has lost all of the square edges on the electrode, so it may be getting a little too hot. You could use a colder plug. Fuel mixture looks pretty good, but you might want to run a lambda sensor to see what the actual mixture it
     
  8. CliffBeer

    CliffBeer Formula 3

    Apr 3, 2005
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    Looks pretty good for a race plug with some time on it. As others have said, it looks like you're running a little lean perhaps. If you're not sure, you can have a bung welded into the exhaust manifold and check your mixture dynamically (on the track) - there are nice electronic readouts with sensor that are available for around $300.

    Looks like you run a pretty big gap in order to get a big spark, and probably have a Big Spark type ignition (electromotive or similar) with separate coils?

    I wouldn't worry about the buildup. A race plug with a big gap, big spark ignition and turbo boost is going to have some buildup. Change 'em out every couple of races is what most guys do that I know.
     
  9. KKRace

    KKRace Formula 3

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    Stay away from the Innovate LM2 as far as O2 sensors. It's junk. Go the LM2 forum on Innovates website and do a little reading and you will see what we are all complaining about and the lack of any help from Innovate
     
  10. No Doubt

    No Doubt Seven Time F1 World Champ

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  11. Lawrence Coppari

    Lawrence Coppari Formula 3

    Apr 29, 2002
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    This is really good information. Thank you.

    The car/engine is quite old - a 1986 model. It has 179K miles on it. Old flapper type fuel injection was converted to a MAF in 1997 along with a larger turbocharger, extrude honed intake, higher fuel pressure, and some other changes to get more air into it. The ignition and injectors are stock. It runs well and has good power. It has a knock sensor system. The plugs had been in the car for about 2 years and a dozen or so track events plus about 7500 miles of normal driving.

    I wanted opinions because I have been advised that I do not have large enough fuel injectors to support the horsepower the engine puts out. My thinking is anecdotal. I have run it this way for 12 years and about 100 DE track events with no problems. It gets excellent fuel mileage just putt-putting on the highway and I would not want that to change. The go-fast parts added to the engine were a kit from a single source. If they thought I needed larger injectors, it seems to me they would have included them in the kit and increased their profit by marking them up.
     
  12. windsock

    windsock Formula 3
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    Nov 29, 2006
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    If you really want to get a picture of what is going on you will need to install a new set of plugs and run it hard for several laps and shut the car off at the end of the longest WOT section of the track and coast in if possible. You can then get an accurate reading of what the compustion process is by reading the plug. A wide band O2 sensor would be adviseable.
     
  13. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    Yup, preignition going on there. The base rings has flecks on it. Use a colder heat range plug. It's hard to tell much else due to the condition of your ground strap. Get a fresh set of plugs, run WOT and then shut off. Pull the plugs and take some good photos and report back. The timing should heat up the ground strap so there is color just to the apex of the strap and no further. The ceramic insulator should be clean with only a ring of color at the very bottom (inside) the threads. Modern plug reading due to modern fuel is very different than reading plugs 40 years ago when fuel was totally different.
     
  14. GrndLkNatv

    GrndLkNatv Formula Junior

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    Thanks, I took the black deposits to perhaps be burning a little oil, also could contribute to the ash deposits depending on the oil additives...
     
  15. No Doubt

    No Doubt Seven Time F1 World Champ

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    If you're getting oil in there it would typically be on the first, second, and perhaps even third threads from the base of the ground strap, but yours appear dry.
     
  16. Lawrence Coppari

    Lawrence Coppari Formula 3

    Apr 29, 2002
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    In my last post I neglected to add that the fuel pressure was increased as part of the initial kit. It went from 2.5 bars to 3.0 bars.

    The plug photographing is going to have to be done on the side of the road. I test the car occasionally with a stop watch over a speed range in a single gear at a particular ambient temperature. Would one run from 60 - 100 at full boost with an immediate shut off do the trick?

    Some people tell me I need 55# injectors given the power rating of the engine which I deduce to be about 385 at the crank. There are BOE formulas that people use to size fuel injectors based on duty cycle, hp, etc. I don't want to blow this thing up. I've had the same setup for 12 years or so. Here's some entertainment from Octoberfest, 2009.
    My friend's 911 has 235 rear wheel hp, weighs 500 pounds less, and has shorter gearing. He spins at the end and we go by.

    http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=phasterphaster&search_type=&aq=f
     
  17. AceMaster

    AceMaster Three Time F1 World Champ

    Feb 6, 2009
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    too lean, too rich...
     
  18. PV Dirk

    PV Dirk F1 Veteran

    Jul 26, 2009
    5,401
    Ahwatukee, AZ
    12 years, a bunch of miles, many track days. If you hear that you have the wrong injectors I think your response needs to be "shows how much you know" There is nothing ugly going on there. Enjoy your car. On a 1986 model if it blew up tomorrow you'd have gotten your money out of it. If you like the power and it aint broke, don't fix it.
     
  19. KKRace

    KKRace Formula 3

    Aug 6, 2007
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    #19 KKRace, Dec 10, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2009
    We'll it seems like all the answers have been pretty consistant. Take the car to someone with a chassis dyno. Call around since there are wide range of cost. One guy in Mt Airy MD has a deal. 3 pulls for $90. Just whatever you do don't buy the Innovate unless you just want to pick up an old LM-1 which was a good product. The LM-2 is garbage

    After one pull they will be able to tell what your air/fuel ratios looked like at the different RPMs and what to do to fix any problems.
     

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