What is Forza somkin'?

Value, in selling anything is an artificial figure that means nothing but sounds good. Saying something is valuable just because it is rare does not make it cost more. It's like saying a pink car is more valuable than a black car. It MIGHT be to the 3 people who REALLY want a pink car but to the other hundred thousand who don't, it's worth very little. So overall, the pink car, though rare, will not bring as much money as the black car simply because it has far fewer buyers. Same is the case with a 328 GTB - it's clear that most people wanted Ferrari to make GTS's. So, again, in the resale market, GTSs are worth more to MOST people because MOST people want GTSs as opposed to GTBs

Being rare doesn't mean valuable. Being rare AND popular is valuable.

However, in my recent search to find a 328, I'd conclude that the prices they quote are far higher than anything I ran across so it would be interesting to see how they came up with them.

 

Hard to figure their reasoning...but I'd say current climate takes $20k off the top of the Ferrari market across the board on 308/328........of that is what they are trying to say...

'Glass 308s are also an ever widening range....from $30K for a worn beater to pristine ones at $100K....

But I think the whole market is in the dumper for awhile......may get worse before it gets better!

 

Am I mistaken or is that a reprinted article from the October 2007 issue?

 

I stopped buying Forza almost a year ago...nothing special anymore. I wonder if they know what they are talking about half the time...

 

I have a subscription to Forza and was thinking the same thing... the magazine is really running out of things to write about... as for the 308's etc.... I think the values are a bit higher than I have seen... I think real prices are about $15K to $10K lower...

 

There's more love for GTBs on this site than in the world at large.

FWIW, I think Sheehan's prices are fairly accurate. You're going to see outliers, like the 328 in Canada with 300 miles on it pushing six figures, but I think he captures 90 percent of the market.

I believe they update the prices and re-run most of the text. The commentary/history of the cars doesn't change, nor would we expect it to.

They have an interesting article on the 208s. I suppose my period of interest is mostly the Boxer/Dino/308/328/TR/512TR era, but the vintage/restoration pieces are very well-written, IMO. It's hard to say much new/different about these cars after a while. How many times can you comment on the "satisfying snick of the gated shifter" without sounding like a cliche mill?

Again, I think the prices are reasonably accurate -- a pristine, low-mile '89 328 GTS probably would fetch $75K even now.

I disagree with Mike about "rust not being a problem on the 308s" -- I think he's spent too much time in California, lol. But overall he knows his stuff.

 

EXACTLY me too

 

+2

 

You're not mistaken, it, along with the V-12 buyer's guide mini-series articles are definitely repeats from about a year ago...

I still buy the mags, but agree that the quality has gone the the drain. Quality in terms of lack of interesting articles to actual physical quality - there have been issues that had stated certain articles in the index and omitted them entirely! There was also one month that had repeated the same couple of ariticles consecutively in the same issue! These are huge gaffes that in any other magazine, or other kind of publication would be good cause for the editor to be fired...

 

Are you talking about the John Scotti car?

It is actually listed at 190 miles and has been for sale for years (I seem to remember it may have been for sale when I was still living in Montreal and that was before 1996). As for price, well, back in 2001, the car was listed at $139,900Cdn. The serial number is 80386.

http://johnscotti.listingauto.com/en/usedcars/listing/details.spy?id=114394

 

There is a similar phenomenon in the Porsche world, known as B Anderson. His estimate of the Porsche market is normally unachievable. The only price that matters is the one you are going to sign a check for before you take possession of that car. All others are just hot air.

 

That was my first thought on seeing it...looks identical. The '07 article was part of the prepurchase research for my current 308, bought on 12/01/07.

 

There was a ~300-mile black/black 328 that sold last year at $90K or so. An FChat'er up in the SF Bay area PM'ed me about it. I don't know whether there was an actual sale, or if that was a hopeful asking price.

But yes, Scotti has had that museum piece for a while.

 

Guys, as one of the journalists here, I can tell you that values published by owners' magazines are a double-edged sword.

Basically, here's the deal: Most of the guys who write for Forza (or Porsche Excellence, Corvette Fever/Corvette Mag etc...) are owners AND DEALERS of cars of the same marque. On one side, the have the ability to document sales prices of specific cars that don't go through auction, so they do have a pretty good view of the value.

BUT ON THE OTHER HAND -- They have a specific interest in increasing the value of the cars, especially the high/retail value. No matter how nice, cool, knowledgeable, etc... a used car dealer is a used car dealer. They make money on selling a car for as much as they can. Also, they don't necessarily pay attention to the low-dollar sales, such as my $27,500 buy of my excellent 328 two years ago from a FChatter who knows all the book values, but found he needed to go below Forza's low-book to sell on his timeline to buy a 348.

I know a ton of marque experts for special interest cars -- guys who are dealers, run auction houses, appraisers, journalists...The ones who make money by selling the cars they know ALWAYS will publicly state the values are higher than they really are. (I have a running joke with some friends about a well-known dealer of Classic-era cars, because over the last decade whenever one asks him how business is, he always says "I'm selling everything I can get my hands on...I just can't get enough Packards, V12 Cads, Cords and Auburns", yet whenever we visit his place, there are dozens of the cars that claims are selling as soon as he gets them, but with a twenty-percent premium over buying the car through any person-to-person deal. (And for the most part, these are not unique or particularly rare Classics.)

AND A STATEMENT ABOUT RARITY AND VALUE -- since that is always a big point of confusion in classics: In the overwhelming majority of situations, rarity works AGAINST the value of a car in the collector market. The phrase I've used in many of my columns, articles, buying guides is: "people aren't nostalgic about cars they never saw when new." As a general rule: production numbers are far less important than body style, horsepower and period association (such as movie, tv, actor). For instance, the '64 Buick Skylark is rarer than a GTO, it also cost more when new. Which costs more now? The same can be said with plenty of sports cars, muscle cars (heck they made MILLIONS of Chevelles and Impalas!). '57 Chevs, Corvettes, Jaguar E-Types, Shelby GT350 and GT500, Ferrari 246GTS, 365 GTB/4, 308 GTS, '68 Mustang Fastback, '69 Charger, '77 Trans Am, '70-'71 Cuda/Challengers...NONE of these are rare cars. If you wanted one today, you could have one in your garage by next week, but they are all desirable collector cars.

Rarity works very well when a high production car had a very desirable high-performance low-production option. ZL1 and L88 Corvettes, HemiCudas, Porsche 911RS....Just plain rare doesn't always cut it. If it did, the 275 GTS/4 NART Spyder with 10 made would be much more valuable than the 250 California.

 

Interesting post. I disagree slightly with your argument specifically with regard to Sheehan and 206/246/308/328s, as he really doesn't deal much at all in the V8s, and his prices on the 206/246 seem consistent with asking prices on actual cars. He's told me personally he likes the 328s as the last of the Ferraris that can actually be repaired with elaborate electronic equipment, but he's consistent in saying they're not collectible (I would like to disagree with him, but honestly every major Ferrari event seems to have an acre of red and tan 328s...) Daytonas are Michael's thing - he doesn't run out of superlatives for those.

You're right that Sheehan ignores the bargains and the really high-end stuff, but frankly if I told someone new to Ferraris to go shopping for a 328 with $30K in his pocket he would either be very frustrated or end up with a piece of junk. I have seen a LOT of 246s, 308s and 328s and, while both may start and run OK, the difference between a $45K 308 QV and a $25K 308 QV is simply huge. If you find one on a fire sale (figuratively...), great, but I think Sheehan and others are correct not to factor those in.

Interesting thoughts on rarity. I've been amazed at the number of series 1 Jag E-Types on the market. You really could buy one more easily than a Prius right now (waits for lightning to crash through the ceiling...)

 

Jon,
You're absolutely right on the Prius vs. E-Type availability.

To follow-up on Sheehan. I don't know him at all outside of his work, so I don't want anyone to assume that I'm speaking of him specifically. (From everything I've heard, he's a heck of a great guy.) I'll speak more generally -- about what some guys do (rather than just assume that's what he is indeed doing,) because there are a lot of guys like him out there for different marques, many who don't have the good reputation he has.

The two things that stick out are: When guys represent the "collectable" cars of the marque, they still have no trouble upping the value of the non-collectable ones to support the ones they do sell. For instance, in the Sheehan case, he doesn't represent the V8 cars, but by ensuring that the inflated -asking- prices of 3X8s are the basis for the values, it actually helps legitimize the higher values of the lower-end cars that he does represent. If a "non collectable" 328 is worth $75K, then certainly the 365 GTC4 he has is easily worth the "priced to sell" $119,500 he's asking, and the 330 GT is then a total steal at $79K (even if it does look like a Gordon Keeble!)

I also have a big problem when the asking prices are the basis of one's values for a book or guide. Most private sales go far below the asking prices. Experts are supposed to document the known sales -- chalk up the auction sales as high, and the panic sales as low, and find the standard private and retail sales in the middle to make up the total reasonable values. If they're ballparking based on either asking prices or what they'd like the values to be to support the cars they sell, then that's not a particularly useful tool.

Finally, it's very easy for a marque expert to be in line with asking prices, since many of the people who sell their cars look to these guys to set the price! Therefore, if the price is somewhat inflated due to being based on asking price, rather than selling price, all the asking prices will continue to be 15 to 20 percent higher than what the cars actually sell for. (In other words, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.)

Again, I'm not saying that in Forza's case this is specifically what is happening, but I do know this happens frequently in other cases.

 

Thanks for the very interesting take on magazines. I've let my subscriptions to both Forza and Cavallino lapse. Both for over a year. I agree, they have run out of things to write about. I personally have very little interest in reading about... Actually, I'm not even going to finish this statement- neither had had anything to catch my interest in a long time. Pretty much, Octane is the last mag I get

 

Written by people who refuse to look off the concours green and into the real market setting beast ebay.

 

I read Forza in 15 mns. Nothing new. Nothing Exciting other than when they do a piece on a special SN. The coverage of the Ferrari events is poor, you get 2 or 3 small pictures ..

 

The last time they printed this edition of the buyer's guide, I was so cheezed that I sent them a letter about it, which they subsequently published.

Imagine my utter lack of surprise when they reprint this same buyer's guide once again, with no apparent updates or changes that I can see.

Now once again the condemnation and criticism of these models is made "official" since it right is there in print, for all to see (and few to challenge).

*(deep sigh)*

Somedays, I wonder why I even bother.

DM