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What kind of gas?

Discussion in '308/328' started by Fiat4Fun, Oct 16, 2009.

  1. Fiat4Fun

    Fiat4Fun Formula Junior

    Jul 1, 2008
    303
    Sunriver OR
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    Bob
    Howdy,
    I just realized that our local shell gas stations premium fuel is "ethanol free". I have been using Chevron premium, but it has 10% ethanol. Is there any advantaged to switch over to the Shell gas that is ethanol free?

    I know there is some Ferrari mechanics on the forum, have any of you seen damaged caused by ethanol fuel.
    I know in my boat, since it is a 86, they say use ethanol free fuel.

    Thanks in advance for the info.

    Bob
     
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  3. furnacerepair

    furnacerepair Formula Junior

    Feb 9, 2009
    723
    Wisconsin
    Full Name:
    Martini
    I have had to use ethanol mixed fuel from the start of it here in south eastern Wisconsin. Signs at stations say to be 10% but in testing the gas we found places up to 30%. I have not had any fuel related problems with the 308. Used to be able to drive north to get ethanol free fuel but not any more.
     
  4. 308-newbie

    308-newbie Guest

    I'd go ethanol free. Ethanol is said to have 2/3 the energy content of gasoline, so you should theoretically rob yourself of power.

    http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/energy_conv.html

    Plus alcohol fuels can degrade some older seals, not sure if that is still an issue but methanol was.
     
  5. venusone

    venusone F1 Rookie

    Mar 20, 2004
    2,809
    Ok, but what station? I have BP, Enmark, Chevron, Shell to choose from. Recently got some bad gas from Chevron (used only the the once) that clogged the fuel filter on my supercharged Miata (started hesitating at end of that tank).
     
  6. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Dec 6, 2002
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    I'd say go 'ethanol free' as long as possible although you certainly don't need the Premium by engine specs on the old 308/328s....

    It was always an old wives tale 'Premium netted better mileage', now that would be the case, based on ethanol's reduced power, as mentioned above.....

    From Shell Fuel Labratories, Houston, Texas,
    Bubba Tex
     
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  8. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

    Jun 14, 2008
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    #6 mike996, Oct 17, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2009
    "you certainly don't need the Premium by engine specs on the old 308/328s...."

    Page 21 in my '89 328 owners manual states "Premium Fuel Only." What is the justification for saying that is incorrect?
     
  9. davebdave

    davebdave Formula 3
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    Mar 18, 2007
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    They say 10% is ok but I have heard the ethanol can separate from the fuel and sink to the bottom of the tank. This is very corrosive to the aluminum tanks in your Ferrari.

    Many light aircraft are certified to run on auto-gas but any ethanol is strictly prohibited.

    Dave
     
  10. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Dec 6, 2002
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    I'm sorry, for your 1989, Premium was recommended...

    I'm refering to my 1976 -77s, 15 years earlier, with 8.8:1 comp ratio, and zero engine management..
     
  11. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Dec 6, 2002
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    #9 BigTex, Oct 17, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2009
    Read your Books, do what THAT says, but the OP obviously didn't have them or there would be no thread....

    Checking his profile, I didn't earlier, you are indeed correct for his 1989.

    Premium often has additional additives too that are nice to have....but IMO, ethanol is not one of them!! LOL!

    That was a Federal Boondoggle worked out with our farmers in the flyover states.....
     
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  13. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

    Jun 14, 2008
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    Totally agree re ethanol - avoid it if at all possible but due to stupid gov stuff and interest groups I think we're stuck with it. It's also tough on the fiberglass gas tank of my old Norton Commando! :)

    Luckily, my boat (fiberglass fuel tanks) is a diesel and they haven't YET mandated ethanol in Diesel fuel. But they might...
     
  14. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Dec 6, 2002
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    Mercury Racing was 'up' on this fuel line deal from the start...

    They issued a Tech Bulletin immediately that notified owners to come in and change EVERY fuel line to TFE or whatever.....

    There's a lot of lines on the carbed Black Max, (3) 2 BBL carbs.........looks a lot like my 308 in there!

    But they did this almost 10 years ago, now......
     
  15. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Dec 6, 2002
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    They told me the carbed Black Max's had been moved to Vintage in their Tech Support, too!

    "I get no respect, I tell ya!!!!!"
     
  16. Neonzapper

    Neonzapper F1 Rookie

    Oct 19, 2008
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    Car and Driver Magazine (I can't remember the exact issue, but earlier this year with Corvette on cover) had a piece stating that ethanol can degrade rubber seals and rubber parts in older vehicles. The newer cars are made with changed parts which support the ethanol fuels.

    Where I live, it is the opposite... Shell has 10% ethanol, and Chevron has no ethanol.
     
  17. miketuason

    miketuason F1 World Champ
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    #14 miketuason, Oct 17, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    This is what my manual says for my 84QV, I guess this means to use Premium too.
    I have always been using Chevron Supreme because of their Techron injector cleaner
    but after reading the above post, I think I'll switch to Shell.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  18. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

    Jun 14, 2008
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    91 RON is equivalent to 86 in the US so it is regular ( most commonly US 87). The 328 calls for Premium of 95 RON. This would be 90 in the US so any grade of 90 or above would be OK for the 328. But most stations don't have 90. 87, 89, and 91 or 92 (sometimes 93) seem to be the most common.
     
  19. miketuason

    miketuason F1 World Champ
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    #16 miketuason, Oct 17, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I just want to share this, I just came back from Manila Philippines and this is what they have there. So what is the equivalent RON for this octane ratings?
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  20. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

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    I'd bet it's a RON rating; it's pretty high to be a Pump Octane Rating (POR - what you see on a pump in the US). But I guess it could be POR though why they'd bother with gas with that high a rating in the Phillipines, I have no idea. That little yellow sticker with the rating on it should say whether it's POR, RON, or Motor Octane Rating (MOR) if you can zoom in on it enough to read it.
     
  21. CliffBeer

    CliffBeer Formula 3

    Apr 3, 2005
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    We like to think that we're only putting "good gas" in our ferraris and stick with Shell or Chevron or (insert your favorite brand here). The fact is that at the refining and distribution level things are quite a bit more free flowing than that, meaning, different refineries product often goes through different distribution channels - Shell isn't always Shell. What's coming out of a Shell pump might have been refined at some non-Shell refinery in timbuktu, mixed with gas from an ARCO refinery and stored in a storage facility at no-name wholesaler and then put into a Shell truck and then taken to the Shell station.

    Personally, I buy ARCO, it's just as good (or better) than most according to my oil and gas buddy and after 20 gallons I'm about $4.00 ahead.
     
  22. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

    Jun 14, 2008
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    Went to the gov website and found that the US is the world's 3rd largest produce of crude oil but we only use 35% of what we produce and then import crude from other countries to make up what we actually need. What's that about?

    Also, the following quote from the site re what makes one brand of gas different than another - it's all done in the transport truck from the storage tanks to the gas station.

    "After shipment through the pipeline, gasoline is typically held in bulk storage terminals that often service many companies. At these terminals, the gasoline is loaded into tanker trucks destined for various retail gas stations. The tanks in these trucks, which can typically hold up to 10,000 gallons, usually have several compartments, enabling them to transport different grades of gasoline or petroleum products. The truck tank is where the special additive packages of gasoline retailers get blended into the gasoline to differentiate one blend from another."

    Site is here: http://www.eia.doe.gov/bookshelf/brochures/gasoline/index.html
     
  23. pippo

    pippo Formula 3

    Sep 25, 2005
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    Dunno how bad ethanol degrades rubber, maybe correct, but petrol products have long been known to be destructive to rubber, at least to natural rubber (as opposed to neoprene, etc).
     
  24. pippo

    pippo Formula 3

    Sep 25, 2005
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    Tier 1 gas issue is veeeeeeeery debateable. For one, I dont buy into that marketing. As a prev poster explained, pipelines go from Tx to NJ, and tees go off from there. Many companies tee into the main line. Gees, now where am I going??????
     
  25. Fiat4Fun

    Fiat4Fun Formula Junior

    Jul 1, 2008
    303
    Sunriver OR
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    Bob
    Thanks for the feedback,

    It is interesting that here anyway, Shell premium does not have ethanol, but the two lower grades do, and not all Shell stations are the same!!!!
    All three grades of fuel at Chevron have Ethanol, and I have always used Chevron since they had additives that help fuel injection.

    My car is a '89, and I have always run premium, as the cost is not that much difference.
    Interesting..........
     
  26. DwightM

    DwightM Karting

    Dec 16, 2008
    56
    Mill Valley, Ca.
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    Dwight the Flyer
    All:

    I have read all the posts, and tried to surmise the context
    of all.

    Owning a 75 Dino 308, I have understood the following,
    (Not being a Chemical Engineer) that the highest amount
    of Octane is best for the Ferrari engine, comsurate with her compression ratios.
    These engines like high octane. That is what she
    was designed for.

    Allow me, yes, there are many variations of cleaning agents,
    Chevron, Shell etc, etc, here is what I have always done with my 308,
    quad carb--

    Buy the highest Octane avaiable, then I add an octane
    booster to get my 308 to about 95/96.

    My quad Webbers totaly appreciate the add, and respond
    appropriately. The music in the back negates any need for
    usage of any other music.

    Never had any other problems, Cheers,
    Dwight
     
  27. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

    Jun 14, 2008
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    "Many companies tee into the main line. Gees, now where am I going??????"

    If you go to the gov site you will see that at the main terminals, where the "Exxon" or "Chevron" or whatever delivery tanker truck load up, it is the same gas; there is no difference. HOWEVER, in the delivery tanker truck the various additives that each company touts are added. This includes any ethanol. Gas is not piped/railed/boated, whatever to the storage facility (where the tankers pick it up) with ethanol in it.

    This is why a tanker could deliver ethanol Exxon (for example) to several gas stations today and non-ethanol to a marina or whatever tomorrow. But the Chevron, Exxon, etc tankers all picked up their "raw" gas at the same terminal.

    SO there can be differences in gasoline from different brands, depending on the additive package that was put into the "mix" as the tanker truck loads up. Whether these different mixes matter or not OR if they are truly different from one brand to another...who knows, it's proprietary information and it's more likely that the effectiveness of the marketers determines which gas you select...

    There is absolutely no advantage to an engine to run higher octane rated fuel than the engine needs. Unless you increase the compression ratio, advance the ignition timing, or make some other relevant changes, putting 94 octane gas in a motor designed for 90 is just wasting money; adding octane booster is just wasting more money. The engine won't "thank you" for it at all but the octane booster producers certainly will!

    THat said, folks are going to do whatever they are comfortable doing and if it makes you feel comfortable putting 98 or whatever in an unmodified car, what the heck, can't hurt. But it won't help either.
     
  28. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2004
    4,629
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    Dave Helms

    Do a search on "fuel hose" on this forum and read a good deal.

    It took me redesigning fuel hose to rectify this as there was nothing available that could be adapted. Its a very real problem and the seperation is only one facet...testing in house showed that occured in as little as 37 days if memory serves me correctly.

    I am in the middle of putting together a web site that will answer many of the questions and dispell many of the myths regarding todays fuel and what is expected to come about this winter. Regardless of where you find the data, brush up on the topic as it represents a very real hazard to the car and ones safety.

    Dave
     

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