What Makes A Ferrari

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by ScottS, May 22, 2022.

  1. ScottS

    ScottS F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Mar 2, 2004
    Winter Park
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    Scott S
    We were having a discussion over on the 812 side about TDF, 812 GTS and other odds and ends trying to predict the future.
    Many on the board are not fans of the EV concept and the pHEV concept. And express their contempt for that kind of car.

    I recently did the Ferrari focus group on what kinds of cars would I buy and what would a Ferrari have to look like, sound like, and be as the platform moves from ICE to other. It really got me thinking to provide Feedback to the company was a privilege and I wanted to represent my thoughts as clearly as possible. That said-

    What must a Ferrari be as it moves forward to be a Ferrari regardless of power train/source. Could an all electric car be a Ferrari? There are some advantages.

    We have a PHEV and more on the way. I am sure we will have all electric in the near term.

    For you what is the essence? What must Future Ferraris be for you to buy them? Some have said, ICE only and sound, smell and feel of ICE or no way. That’s valid as well.

    x599 likes this.
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  3. ginoBBi512

    ginoBBi512 Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 9, 2016
    A car that runs on gasoline, with no power steering, and has 3 peddles. Its that simple, oh and its designed by Pinan Farina, you all know what Im talking about. Oh I forgot, a front or mid mounted V12 , or a mid mounted V8 , unless its a 246 of course. Enzo would be included , that car is so bad ass, that 2 peddles is fine, same with the F8 / 458 / 488 and any of the modern front mounted V12s , 2 or 3 peddles, 3 is preferred.

    Thank you
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  4. Brian A

    Brian A F1 Rookie

    Dec 21, 2012
    SanFrancisco BayArea
    Full Name:
    1983 US 308 GTS QV
    There is a lot of existential hand-wringing within all the automotive communities right now about these very issues.

    Personally, I now feel a sharp divide between my interests in fun cars and transportation appliances. For fun cars, I am no longer interested in modern cars; I love the feeling of operating a “crude” piece of machinery. I like gearshifts and lots of mechanical buttons and switches. For grocery runs we have a generic SUV (Acura RDX, if you must know) and its unassuming nature is a big asset.

    Based on the above, I will probably never buy a new Ferrari. I would go older, buying a 330 GTC or 365BB or something. So, I am a lost cause in terms of Ferrari marketing. I have a Bentley friend who I egged on to buying a Portofino, which he promptly traded for a 488, which he promptly traded for a SF90 which he will trade when he gets his SF90 convertible. I egged on another friend to buy a Roma. Both really are a totally different demographic than me. The SF90 guy just loves the status of the car; the Roma guy is finally rewarding himself with a car of his dreams. Both play into Ferrari’s exclusivity game; it doesn’t really matter what Ferrari makes as long as it looks nice and is hard to get.
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  5. ScottS

    ScottS F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Mar 2, 2004
    Winter Park
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    Scott S
    It’s interesting because the questions on the survey were more general and well written to get at what is it about those things that moves you.

    Like when dating - instead of saying a person with blue eyes but saying kind eyes.

    Did anyone else do this survey ?

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  6. italiafan

    italiafan F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jul 19, 2006
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    Stickbones Swagglesmith
    I recently did that survey.

    To me Ferrari represents a “dream” of owning a beautiful, handmade exotic car. The “specialness” of a Ferrari has been whittled down already by numerous manufacturers now being capable of making extremely fast and beautiful machines. Another thing which has decreased their “awe” is the modern Information Age whereby we all know a lot of details about the working behind “the curtain” of what is just another mundane company. When I was younger there were only magazines/books and legend and lore. That mystery contributed to the magic, now knowing board room discussions and watching videos of factory tours and testing of mules has stripped that magic away.

    To remain at or near the top in a electrification age where buying a car already too fast for normal road use is common they need to make drop dead beautiful cars (exterior and interior) and maintain a brand that says the owner is capable of being among the “jet set red carpet” crowd if he so chooses. They don’t need to be the fastest cars because any fool can buy a Nissan that will scare the crap out of you, but when you pull up “mere mortals” need to be pleasantly surprised to see the arrival of such an amazing and unusual machine.
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  8. Lunch Bag

    Lunch Bag Rookie

    Apr 18, 2022
    Coastal Georgia and Coastal Maine
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    Unlike many on this forum who are long time and multiple Ferrari owners, I am completely new to the brand.

    Coming from Aston, I want something elegant and understated like the Roma. The Roma is what brought me to Ferrari.

    I would contemplate purchasing a hybrid Ferrari if it were again elegant and had a track record of being extremely reliable. My concern with a hybrid Ferrari would be the complexity and potential costs of repairs after the warranty expires. If I lived closer to a Ferrari dealer (closest is 255 miles) this would be less of a concern.

    Absolutely zero interest in a fully electric exotic, regardless of how beautiful it is.
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  9. Smiles

    Smiles F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 20, 2003
    Pittsburgh, PA
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    Matt F
    A gated manual transmission. Unless it’s earlier.

  10. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula 3

    Oct 1, 2004
    Austin TX
    Bespoke engines based on 70+ years of history and experience. That's their main contribution that leads to everything else. If that legacy is no longer part of their vehicles, then I believe they are a new company that is in direct competition with all the other new (EV) companies. A "silent" Ferrari (or Lamborghini for that matter) defies one of the main aspirational reasons for their existence.
  11. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula 3

    Oct 1, 2004
    Austin TX
    Here's another way to look at this...

    If Ferrari were to switch to using Honda combustion engines, but everything else remained as it is currently is, would that still be a Ferrari?

    That would be "outsourcing" the "heart and soul" of the car, so, to me it would no longer be a Ferrari.

    In the same manner, that is what moving to EV is, Ferrari will be outsourcing the electric motors and the battery pack. Same difference to me (besides all the other generic issues with EV powertrains), the 'heart and soul' will be outsourced.

    When Ferrari does that, it completely ceases to be a Ferrari.

    Yes, most everything in a modern Ferrari is outsourced already including the transmission (Getrag, Magna, etc), but, when they outsource the engine, FINO (Ferrari in name only).
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  13. Jaguar36

    Jaguar36 Formula Junior

    Nov 8, 2010
    Cherry Hill, NJ
    What if they were to make the motors and inverters in house?
  14. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula 3

    Oct 1, 2004
    Austin TX
    Good question, currently they have zero experience with these devices. However, even if they were to develop something truly unique and capable, at the end of the day it would still be an EV and therefore an appliance.

    If Ferrari had gone that path back in 2010 or so, that is, developing their own EV components (sort of like McLaren has done), it would still be an EV, so, to me, I do not become overly enamored with electric motors, I believe they are devoid of passion and can be significantly irritating to listen to "at volume".

    And, given the variety of EV motors (inverters do not have moving parts), is anyone actually aware (or care) who made the electric motor(s) being used in any EV? I presume no one really cares, because, after all, they are appliances.
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  15. Jaguar36

    Jaguar36 Formula Junior

    Nov 8, 2010
    Cherry Hill, NJ
    You seem to just be using appliance as a derogatory slur for cars you don't care for. Lots of folks use their Ferrari's as daily drivers, and lots of folks drive their EVs for fun and have a blast doing so.

    Right now most of the differentiation between EV is mostly on the efficiency side for two reasons. The first is that's where EVs were most lacking. The 2nd those is just how few performance EVs there are. It's really just the Taycan and the Model S, and really those are two very different cars. If it wasn't for them being the only two ~$120k EVs, they never would be compared to each other. So there really isn't much out there to compare.

    That being said the S and the Taycan feel vastly different two each other. Heck even the different generations of the Model S feel vastly different. As more EVs that are aimed at enthusiasts become available, I think we will start to see significant differentiation between them. Its quite possible Ferrari will just take an off the shelf EV drivetrain, slap it in a generic chassis and put a prancing horse on it. It would undoubtedly sell like crazy. However I think they will do alot more than that. I think they will make something that is truly special.
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  16. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula 3

    Oct 1, 2004
    Austin TX
    #13 JTSE30, May 23, 2022
    Last edited: May 23, 2022
    I forgot to mention they are "heavy appliances".

    For that "metric" the Tesla Plaid has the 'upper hand' weighing "only" 4828 pounds (2190kg) versus the Taycan Turbos S at 5101 pounds (2313kg). At least the Porsche has a better suspension for performance driving.

    As for daily driving a Ferrari, and by that, meaning mundane errands, stuck in traffic, etc, I say, good for those owners, but, that's just a further extension of being an appliance. It is nice that modern exotics are reliable enough for such use.

    Undoubtedly, if EVs were not being forced on to manufacturers as their only way forward and instead those manufacturers were choosing, I doubt any would put as much, if any, emphasis on shifting to EV as their only platform. For example, look at the LaF, rather than being a platform for the future (kers system) it was a dead-end, no regular production Ferrari used it (and kers is designed from F1 for performance boost, not economy/extending range). Had all the emissions regulations forcing not occurred, it is unlikely Ferrari would of even downsized its V8s and gone turbo much less EV. And Michael Leiters would of never had to "fight" to save the V12...
  17. sunghyun7

    sunghyun7 Karting

    Oct 7, 2019
    what makes ferrari is the engine. Enzo said it himself. They should stick with what they know. They will get slaughtered if they start outsourcing everything to build an electric car just to put its badge on in the end. It's like mechanical vs digital watch comparison. There is something special about looking at and feeling a finely crafted machine. I rather have them try to beat electric cars on speed than abandon everything they know.
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  18. ScottS

    ScottS F1 Rookie
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    Mar 2, 2004
    Winter Park
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    Scott S
    What’s interesting is the word engine. Which will go the way of the album or cd.

    An engine profile and performance will become dialed in as a design factor with acceleration and speed parameters dialed in with software.

    If one could clone the power plant profile and feel of a front 12 would that suffice ?

    Life is different. We aren’t walking around in the clothes of the 1800s either. Nor are we riding horses.

    Dunno. The questions were clarifying for how I am not specific in what is the essence.

    Yes. Life is short. I drive my 16m to work. The long way.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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  19. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 1, 2013
    Menlo Park, CA
    Full Name:
    Paul Chua
    It's largely subjective measures. Some of the older Ferrari would get embarrassed by various vehicles today in whatever category.

    If I'm wrong, then the brand wouldn't be so protected.

    not a critique btw, I wouldn't have it any other way. If what's on paper matters to you, Porsche has you covered.
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  20. sunghyun7

    sunghyun7 Karting

    Oct 7, 2019
    plenty of people still ride horses. I think Ferrari should keep making and perfecting engines.

    will I drive a car with an electric motor made v12 noises? yes, for Toyota money. will I pay Ferrari money for that experience? no. It's all around us. Everything from digital piano vs acoustic piano... mechanic watch vs apple watch... horses vs cars. one is clearly better on paper. The other choice is sometimes better because we are people. I think Ferrari should continue to lean on selling to people.

    That being said, I wouldn't buy another Ferrari if they threw in the towel at trying to make the fastest car on the planet. There is a four letter word for cars that just look fast.
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  21. USMCS6

    USMCS6 Formula Junior
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    Dec 21, 2018
    Arlington VA and Daytona Fl
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    One thing I really don't understand is if Ferrari only makes say 10K cars a year, why do they feel the need to conform to the EV thing. If they want to make a hybrid or something for show that's fine. I have to think they would sell all the ICE cars they want. I guess looking at the clothing line they are pushing maybe they are just going for a new audience. I'm sure Enzo would be so proud.
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  22. pilotoCS

    pilotoCS F1 Veteran
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    May 19, 2019
    The District
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    Just like every other car manufacturer in the world Ferrari has to react to environmental issues.
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  23. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula 3

    Oct 1, 2004
    Austin TX
    But, there are no "environmental issues", only government regulation forcing, not a single car manufacturer acts in an altruistic fashion.

    Volcanic outgassing creates far more "environmental issues" than anything car manufacturers contribute. Note: Carbon Dioxide is neither a pollutant or a problem, it is essential to life on this planet. It is amazing what funding does to create a story from seemingly respectable sources.

    However, we are only along for the ride, not in control:
    Concluding paragraph:
    In some ways, it might seem like good news that the circulation can decline and rebound, rather than simply declining, or worse, shutting down completely. But Ninnemann notes that human systems of agriculture, trade, and settlement were not designed to cope with such fluctuations. "We have built everything we have in this relatively stable climate period [of the past 10,000 years]," Hinnemann explains. "But the geologic record shows us this may be an exception, rather than the rule."
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  24. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Feb 4, 2014
    Full Name:
    Captain Fantastic
    Don't take focus group surveys and polling so seriously. The last major one they performed owners ranked the sound of the engine as the most valued and they quickly proceeded to eliminate the sound. Its like when HR sends a survey out and says they really care about your opinion. Just checking a box and they will produce whatever makes cash for shareholders not necessarily what a valued customer really wants.

    They are in a tough spot with EVs. They will have to concentrate on M&A to keep competitive in that market in the long term. They suck at electronics and software when compared to even the Japanese. Ferrari will undoubtedly have to share more of the exotic market when a company like Tesla releases a hand made, Italian designed CF body with thick soft leather and a long customization list especially if it is priced below Ferrari.
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  25. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant

    Sep 18, 2002
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Ferrari was a speacial and exotic car that was marketed towards a wealthy buyer who understood and liked cars and racing. Racing was the reason we have a Ferrari to buy.

    Now Ferrari shares parts with a Dodge Ram pick-up truck and a Caravan. Maserati might aswell be a Charger.

    Make no mistake...Ferrari is now directed by Stelantis.
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  26. ChipG

    ChipG Formula 3

    May 26, 2011
    Santa Monica, CA
    a 5 or 6 figure repair bill from a guy named Luigi or Geno
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  27. SirTony76

    SirTony76 Karting

    Jan 18, 2004
    Not a perfect analogy, but when I shoot my guns I'm always impressed that they can function as a purely mechanical device (zero electronics involved). I like cars that are mostly mechanical and have as little electronics as possible--seem to give the car personality, noise, etc. This aspect is a huge amount of the charm and fun to me.
    JOHNCJ8989 and JTSE30 like this.
  28. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jan 26, 2005
    Indian Wells, California
    Full Name:
    Good points. I would gladly have an EV for daily driving. I have a Porsche 964 and there’s nothing in the showroom that makes a tempting replacement. It’s beautifully loud, mechanical, and has a whiff of vintage racer. A 365 BB would be a life changing experience.

    I suspect that Ferrari will crack the code and build a race-ready EV that sits apart from the Teslas and Bolts. It will be track-ready, and feel like it. There’s ample room for improvement. Till then…

    Sent from my iPad using mobile app

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