What percentage of Pantera's are still stock

Well my interest is a little different because I am interested in sticking with the stock wheels but not on a Pantera. I have an Espada and a Bora. The ones you mention aren't very realistic for those cars and it's why some have had 16 & 17 inch wheels made for the Merak & Bora. The good old or even not so good old days are long gone. I don't find XWXs suitable and never did. Someone is having OEM style but 17" wheels made for the Bora.

235 & 245 or even 255 x 60 VR 15 real street tires at reasonable pricing not $500+ is all some of us are looking for. They were wonderful on these cars 20-30 years ago ...

 

It's easy to list a bunch of tire brands and say they are available, but when you actually try to purchase DOT street tires it is a different matter. Sure, if you're willing to install a 215/60-15 where you wanted a 225/50-15 and live with the 1" larger diameter (and rubbing, higher front end etc.) then go for it. Personally, I think our collective energy would be better put towards asking/begging quality tire makers to periodically release needed sizes every few years as Pirelli has done on occasion. I understand that LS can have his needs satisfied because tires correctly sized for a GT5 ARE available from a couple of the sources he lists. Not so for the early cars wearing 8 and 10" wide wheels (and, yes, the 7" and 8" do look silly). None of the manufacturers listed by LS or Pantera 1973 sells tires in the sizes that used to be widely available — including, until recently, BFG.

On Magnesium wheels: I too have seen dangerously cracked Campagnolo Pantera wheels, but they were all poorly maintained, left in damp areas, and usually previously damaged by hitting curbs or by weight clamps or other damage to the paint seal. While many Pantera wheels will have been less-well cared for than most Ferrari wheels, the vast majority of wheels I have seen are holding up quite well. And, no, I wouldn't drive the track or the Autobahn at 150 mph on mine. I have a nice set of 17" wheels with P-Zeros for that.

To the discussion of modifications, I think that there are extremely few Panteras that would withstand rigorous Pebble Beach Concours class judging. And, as much as I love the cars presented at PB, I would rather enjoy my car on the open road than have it score 100 points on a golf green. I think that Tom Tjaarda did an awesome job designing the original Pantera. And I also think the GT5, GT4/Group4 and the GT5-S are all aesthetically pleasing factory-evolved variants. I don't personally like seeing big wings and air dams added to the early narrow cars, and have never been a fan of purple velvet interiors or gilded trim, but the price point and "mongrel" heritage of the Pantera allowed some people with less funds and even less taste explore their fantasies more inexpensively than they could with with Ferraris and Lamborghinis of the day.

 

All good info I see this discussion being more related to street cars than racing, if your racing it's a whole different standard. Funny how all Pantera owners seem to think they are racers

I am familiar with Iso's Bizzarrini's and what we had made were new replicas out of magnesium or aluminum. They look identical, same size, same cast texture, new spines are used and your set. All 15 "

Lamborghini has done the same for their Campagnolo's.

Wheel failures IMO ar mostly due to the rims prior owners and care.

I believe the Mangusta rims are now being reproduced too.

With todays scanning technology and CNC exact duplicate rims can be made out of aluminum. If painted only a very few can tell the difference.

I have yet to meet anyone who told me that their Campagnolo came apart while driving, Borrani's yes, I have heard this numerous times, but thats a different thread.

 

Mark, your cars look terrific as always. Does your white car have the spring spacers removed?

Also, I hope to make it to one of the Kingston events soon...the pics looked great.

Scott, I haven't seen your car in years but it sounds like a lot has changed.

The TB, Hoosier R6, Hoosier R7 or P7 Corsa would be great for the early narrow bodied cars. There are sizes that do work with the 10" rears using a little creativity and calculation.

I know that Detomaso owners are no strangers to a little creativity or calculation. I hope this would translate to possibly the most important modification on a Detomaso.

LS

 

That is a very good question. Here in the Dallas area we have an Italian car show every year called ItalianCarFest. The Pantera club always show up with between 3 to 10 cars per year. Show participants are given ballots to vote on best of class and I always struggle with who should get my vote. Should I award originality or the amount of modifications that have been done? They all look beautiful and it is a difficult decision.

Good topic.

Cheers,

Jeff
Dallas, Texas

 

I agree. About 1 year ago I emailed Yokohama. I asked them what would it take to get to start reproducing some of their tires. The response was that they were not going to do this and thank you for your interest in their tire. I did the same with Pirelli. I actually spoke with someone on the phone with regards to their P7 tires. He told me that he would pass this information to his boss. Never heard anything back from them. In this day and age with all the competition, wouldn't you think if there was some interest in your product you at least look into the inquiry.

 

Pantera's were the rockstars of the automotive world. Most are partied out now.

 

It's all relative. When you consider that there were 13,912 Shelby Mustangs produced from 1965-1970, Panteras were twice as rare when they were new.

I've heard different numbers batted around over the years, but the consensus is there are around 3,000 to 3,500 or so Panteras left worldwide in running condition.

 

Thanks LS. Yes, it was one of the first things I did to the car. The spacers were added by DeTomaso to suit USA headlight-height regulations, so it was one of the "modifications" I made to the car. Along with changing to 8" wide front and 10" wide rear wheels, it has dramatically improved the appearance of the car (IMHO) with no negative handling impacts. I replaced the original non-adjustable-height shocks for adjustable units so I could tweak the ride height to my taste. Purists would cringe since I have removed (but kept) factory-installed parts, but I just ask them to please look away.

On the tire issue again, it is weird that Pirelli will make tires to suit the Countach and yet doesn't seem to respond to he needs of (narrow-bodied) Panteras which are both much more plentiful (3 to 4 times as many produced) AND much more frequently driven. I would have thought the Pantera market (which also includes GT40s shod in similar sizes) would be large enough to justify a run of tires every few years — especially if the Countach market is.

Mark
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Here is how the car looked when I bought it. Exact same tires, btw.
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The tires are the same but you put 8" and 10" tires on?

 

Mike, think you meant "wheels". In my opinion, the 10" 'campy' rear wheel exchange over 8" is the single best thing you can do aesthetically for a Pantera - period. I also like the look of period 15" rims and 'balloonish' high profile tires, just looks the best. Feel the same about early 308 Ferrari's...the smaller diameter wheels and higher profile tires, just look best, to me anyway. Performance tires are an issue, but they can be sourced. always been a fan of Mark's Pantera's (and your other cars too), man knows cars and aesthetics.

 

The previous owner had put tires much too wide for the 7" and 8" original wheels. I reinstalled them on the 8" and 10" wheels. 225/50-15 fronts and 295/50-15 rears.

 

No, in fact there are still a lot around which is probably because of the Ford engines. They are easy to keep running and modify. My comment was that Panteras seem to get customized more than any other exotic it seems. They always seem to get chromed up with candy paint jobs looking like they are stuck in the 80's.

 

I don't really have a issue with wider factory rims you can alway put the originals back on, it's the wings, different seats, painted engine compartments and all the chrome. I really love the way original Italian cars look whether it's a Fiat, Alfa, Maserati.... the Pantera has that Italian look too it's a shame so many were modified.

 

I believe I posted this before but Gandini sold the wide flares and V rear deck wing to DeTomaso before he did to Lamborghini. The 9000 series cars were born with wings and flares, the later ones 9600+ were built as wide bodies. Some owners who could not afford the more desirable cars so they altered some early ones. ( Just as some Periscopo owners had the early features removed to get the appearance of the newer style)

As to the finished engine bays , they were color matching at the outset, just that the manufacturer covered them with 3/16 thick undercoat, and then never installed the fiberglass luggage tub. No real mod there.

 

All business in the front, party in the back.
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Walter Wolf gets the credit for flares, wings and wide tires on the Countach back in 1974. I don't think Panteras had them until 1980. It's a Canadian invention.
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Original is original. And the newer cars being more desirable is a matter of opinion. 1971-74 seems to be the Pantera that most people are familiar with.
I personally find that modifications cheapen the purity of the marque. Just part of the reason that it has taken this long for the cars to become more popular.
My two cents as an owner of a preservation car...

 

Those look like 100% party AND 100% business in the back.

One thing I must say is that I find it rather fun to see 40 or 50 Panteras on the grass at at Concorso and no two are exactly alike. You will find some the same color, but almost never two Panteras exactly the same. However, when you walk two greens over and see row upon row of red, 100% stock 308/328/355/360/430 all lined up and sparkling, it seems a bit... conformist?

I understand both sides of this debate extremely well, which is why I needed to have two Panteras. One in each camp. And if public opinion is the true gauge of desirability, my modified car wins hands down every time (compared to my stock Pantera — and it's not as nice as some of the Panteras you just showed).

As much as purists diss a shiny Pantera engine bay, for the last two years at the Toronto Italian Car Day show, the award for best engine has been given to a Pantera. It just kills me that the best engine at an Italian car event got awarded to a cast iron V8 from Detroit—twice. Can't be all that bad.

The 2014 winning engine is below.
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Your plate sums it up. These are Hot Rods of the exotic world. Had these cars been fitted with some rare hard to find parts for sketchy Italian engine, there is no way they would be as prevalent as they are today. Searching pictures has got me loving Pantera again.
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Oh Canada!! I believe the Wolf Ct's were done by dallara who was a consultant at the factory on his second go around. Red number 2 car with bravos, wing and flares preceded this blue car was the first ct to have the v wing which looks a bit different. I reckon the red WW ct was completed circa 76 blue 77 and the real S 78

Those gr4 campy cars rock!