What temp to keep garage?? | FerrariChat

What temp to keep garage??

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by KKRace, Jan 28, 2008.

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  1. KKRace

    KKRace Formula 3

    Aug 6, 2007
    1,052
    Rockville/Olney MD
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    Kevin
    This is my first year with heat in my detached garage. 1,100 sq ft. What minimum temp should I keep in the garage when I'm not working out there for a few days. I'm not an expert on dew points etc. My idea is to keep at around 45f and turn to whatever comfortable when I'm out there. Will 45 keep cars from sweating? Should I be monitoring the outside temp? I'm in MD near DC. Before I put in the heat I did have some problems with tools etc rusting from moisture attracted to cold metal. Seemed more a problem in late fall and early spring than winter. Anyone with better knowledge they'd be willing to share? Bottom line, I'm too cheap to leave it at 65 all winter.

    For those that don't know what I talking about there are times where moisture condensates on the cold metal objects in the garage. I suspect it's caused by the metal objects getting cold during the cold nights and the moisture condensating on the metal like a cold beer in the summer.
     
  2. FasterIsBetter

    FasterIsBetter F1 Veteran

    Jul 22, 2004
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    The problem is not when it's cold. The problem with sweating arises when you get those humid days when the temperature goes up after it has been cold. Then the moisture condenses on all that cold metal and surfaces inside the car get wet. IMHO, 45 won't do the job. My thought would be at least 55. If you are really concerned, watch the weather on a daily basis and keep the temperature in your garage above the dew point. That should keep you from having any condensation. Otherwise, if you get a humid day and you start to notice condensation, crank up the heat and dry everything out.
     
  3. open roads

    open roads F1 Rookie

    Jan 28, 2007
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    Sarasota, Fl.
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    Stan
    I'm keeping mine at 50 for now. It's my first year. There sure isn't much moisture in the air and I see no problems so far.
     
  4. Gerry328

    Gerry328 Formula 3
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    Sep 25, 2006
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    I keep my garage at 50F and have not had any condensation issues. Also, my furnace is a sealed unit, combustion air comes from the outside. This helps in keeping moisture levels down.
     
  5. hardtop

    hardtop F1 World Champ

    Jan 31, 2002
    11,285
    Colorado
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    I keep mine at 50 but condensation is never a problem here. If you are really concerned, get a de-humidifier.

    Dave
     
  6. Glassman

    Glassman F1 World Champ
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    40 Degrees in Montana, but it is dry. Everything leather and rubber loves it.
     
  7. FasterIsBetter

    FasterIsBetter F1 Veteran

    Jul 22, 2004
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    Guys, Kevin is in Maryland, near DC, if what he has listed is correct. In that part of the country, like around here in NJ, we get swings in temperature and humidity all winter long. One day it will be 10 to 20 degrees overnight, the next it will warm up into the 40's with rain, like today around here. It's those kind of days, when it goes from being well below freezing to the mid to upper 40s or 50s, and humid, that we get a ton of condensation. In dry climates like Colorado, 40 to 50 might work. But IMHO, in areas along the Atlantic coast, if you want to be sure you don't end up with a lot of condensation, keep the garage a little warmer, or watch the weather very closely and adjust the temperature accordingly.
     
  8. 285ferrari

    285ferrari Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Sep 11, 2004
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    Southern Md
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    Kevin, I have had my detached garage here in MD for about 4 years now. My thermostat will only go down to 45. I have kept it 45 in there thru 4 winters now and never had any problems. When I work out there, I crank it up to about 60 and it is perfect...
     
  9. Meister

    Meister F1 Veteran
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    Apr 27, 2001
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    If your area is prone to humid conditions year round, in my slightly unedcated opinion the temp does not matter.....humidity is solved by a dehumidifyer. If the area is humid and below freezing, you'll get frost.... if it's above freezing, you'll get sweat.

    As a builder/remodel guy, my question is what is producing the "heat" for the garage?

    Forced air should be fairly dry.
    Non-vented garage heaters consume the O2 in the space and produce condensation almost regardless of the ambient temp.
    Electric can also produce humidity if there is no air exhchange.

    Overall, 40-50 should be good when you are not in there. It's the hunidity (stemming from the "type" of heater) that's the real problem to solve.

    Keep us informed.
     
  10. KKRace

    KKRace Formula 3

    Aug 6, 2007
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    Rockville/Olney MD
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    Had the problem when I had no heat in the garage. Just installed the furnace/unit heater this year to prevent as well as make it better to work. Cold nights followed by warm days give you a condition where you have cold metal and warm moist air. Sort of the definition of a dehumidifiyer. The moisture would attract to the cold metal. Probably not as big a problem with attached garages. You wouldn't see the moisture on the cars unless you looked in hidden areas of the frame etc which didn't warm up as fast as the exterior sheetmetal. Common cause of rust in collector cars also made some saw blades etc rust up a bit. Just wondering how much heat do I need to stop it? I know you can also prevent this by moving the air with a fan but hate to run a fan 24/7 in the winter.

    My Propane unit heater is vented through the roof so should probably be sending most of the moisture out the vent and maybe drying the air.
     
  11. FasterIsBetter

    FasterIsBetter F1 Veteran

    Jul 22, 2004
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    The problem with a dehumidifier is that is works basically like an air conditioner, running the air over a chilled surface. If the garage is too cold, there won't be enough differential between the air and the chilled surface, or it will simply freeze up. IIRC, the dehumifiers I have say not to use them below 50 deg., but I could be wrong (I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.).
     
  12. KKRace

    KKRace Formula 3

    Aug 6, 2007
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    I suspect it has to do with the dew point as Fasterisbetter suggested. I checked and todays dewpoint is 7 degrees F so I should be safe for the next couple days. I was doing a little searching and did find this from some company that sells some sort of inflatable airbag to keep your car in, I'm not sure if the dew point outside would be the same as the dew point inside my garage? I don't know if I'm buying everything they are saying but here it is:

    The Carcoon Airflow System is the only system in the world that actively isolates, cleans and ventilates the air around the vehicle whilst garaged
    Dampness in the average garage is often the result of a build-up of condensation. This, along with poor ventilation, can create the worst environment to keep any vehicle, even for a short period of time.

    The moisture problem is exacerbated each time the air temperature within the garage drops below the dew-point (ie. the temperature at which dew begins to form, which varies with the humidity and temperature of the atmosphere), when a little more moisture is absorbed into the building.

    Later, as the air temperature starts to rise again, the potential for drying is greatly reduced, usually entirely due to the poor air circulation and inadequate ventilation within the building.

    Imagine it working like this: Equate the air within the garage to a large sponge. The warmer the sponge becomes, the more water it can take on. Conversely, the colder it becomes, the more water it has to dispose of.

    In the mid to late evening, as the air cools and drops below the dew-point, it immediately starts to rid itself of excess moisture. The colder it becomes, the more moisture will be expelled. Several hours later and it’s a new day. The sun starts to rise, and the air temperature within the garage starts to increase, and begins soaking up some of the moisture deposited only a few hours earlier.

    Poorly insulated garages (in reality, most) will be subject to increased temperatures, sometimes even higher than the external ambient temperature. This means that the air within the garage will not only take on moisture from inside the garage environment, but under certain climatic conditions it will also take on moisture from outside, as the external ambient air finds its way into the building.

    Under these conditions there will be more moisture supported within the air in the garage than is outside in the open air. Poor ventilation will keep the moisture locked within the building. Over ventilation will let in more moist air than necessary early on in the proceedings. Subsequently, again, as the temperature starts to drop, the garage environment will be the first to reach the dew-point, and could end the day with more moisture than it started with.

    This is all part of the normal 24-hour cycle during wintertime. Some people simply heat the garage in an effort to keep it dry, or more importantly to keep the vehicle dry. As long as the garage doors remain closed, and the temperature is maintained throughout the 24-hour cycle, this is an adequate - if not ideal - solution.

    However, heating the garage doesn't remove water from the air. The resulting drop in relative humidity after turning on the heating simply demonstrates the extra capacity of the air to support moisture.

    A garage heated to, say, 26°C with a relative humidity (RH) of 50% will have 5.5 grams of water for every cubic foot of air. A typical unheated garage with a temperature of only 5°C, again at 50% RH will contain 72% less water - only 1.5 grams per cubic foot.

    Therefore the rule of thumb has to be: If you heat your garage, keep the heat low and heat it day and night. Or alternatively, don’t heat it at all!

    One thing is perfectly clear, the higher the humidity, and the greater the temperature drop, the heavier the condensation. Historically, only governments could afford the expense of pressurised temperature and humidity controlled buildings. These buildings cost millions to build, and are very expensive to run and maintain.

    Running a dehumidifier in the average garage without controlling the airflow can be an expensive and futile attempt at controlling the moisture content within the garage. Sometimes it’s more like an attempt at dehumidifying the whole neighbourhood! If you really want to protect your car properly, keeping it dry is the obvious one, but in this modern industrial age there are also other important considerations.
     
  13. Wolfgang5150

    Wolfgang5150 F1 Rookie

    Oct 31, 2003
    4,706
    So - would radiant floor heating make a difference? Instead of a furnace? I am working on plans for a 1,200 sq. f. building and am exploring my options.........
    Thanks.
    Kevin
     
  14. KKRace

    KKRace Formula 3

    Aug 6, 2007
    1,052
    Rockville/Olney MD
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    Kevin
    That's a good question, I don't know? I have a couple friends that have the radiant floor heating and as long as you leave it at one set temp it's very nice. I don't think it's very good if you want to keep it low and just crank it up when you go out to work. It might even be worth looking into a geothermal heatpump to heat the water? I think if I were building a garage I might consider radiant heat and still get a unit heater to heat the place up quick when I need it. It only cost me $700 delivered for a 75K Btu propane unit heater.
     
  15. Crawler

    Crawler F1 Veteran

    Jul 2, 2006
    5,018
    I put a small heat pump system in last year. It's terrific. The minimum setting on the heat mode is 61F, so that's what I leave at for cold weather. In the summer, I keep it around 82F on the cool setting. If I'm going to be working in the garage for a while, I'll crank it up to make it either warmer or cooler. This is in a new, well-insulated detached garage that's about 400 sq. ft.

    In mild weather, I turn it off completely.
     
  16. ham308

    ham308 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    358
    NE Switzerland
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    Richard Ham
    For my 2 cents - I think the temperature is not important but the amount of water in the air.

    I run a small de-humidifier in my once-damp garage and it has solved the problem. As someone else said you must seal up the garage to prevent any air getting in otherwise you will be de-humidifying the neighbourhood. It uses only a couple of hundred watts (like a light bulb) and has a humiditystat? (thermostat but for water) so it is off most of the time. It also has a temperature sensor so it turns itself off when there is a risk of its cooler bit freezing. When the weather is well above freezing its amazing how much water it removes in week and the the garage feels warm and dry. When the temperature is around freezing the air cannot hold much water anyway so there doesn't seem to be a problem.

    It was also cheap, probably made in China. I intend just to replace with another when it finally gives up the ghost.
     
  17. hotshu

    hotshu Rookie

    Jan 3, 2008
    25
    How do you seal up the perimeter opening of the overhead garage door, for air leaks, if using a de-humidifier?
     
  18. ham308

    ham308 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    358
    NE Switzerland
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    Richard Ham
    The door seals pretty well when shut and I just closed off the air vents. It is a little strange because under normal circumstances you want a well ventilated garage to stop condensation. here you need the opposite.
     
  19. bill brooks

    bill brooks F1 Veteran
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    Jul 30, 2007
    5,230
    waynesburg,pa
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    bill brooks
    for any of you pondering garage heat, i have been using a radiant system in my garage for 2 winters now.
    i just finished the fuel hose pm on my 328, and i can say uneqivicoally that it is the best way to go.
    admittedly this winter has been mild, but keeping the space @ 65*f allows me to get work done without
    shivering or dropping tools due to cold paws.
    if anyone would like to discuss further, please pm me.you will be glad.
     
    Mechanical Dad likes this.

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