What would you do?

What does the 6K include? How much for the removal and install of the engine?

10 K sounds pretty good, warranty??

 

The Factory rebuilt a lot of those oil burners under warranty...looks like yours didn't make that program.

They should use a boroscope to look around.

A burnt valve is just a head job not a rebuild, I follow you though, on the marginal rings.

Maybe some gurus can offer better wisdom..

 

$10K is what TRutlands gets for a short block rebuild, including your old motor as 'core".....install labor would be on top of that....

I'd freshen the heads and keep pouring oil in it...but there's a lot of oil already on the ground, here...

 

I thought the oil burning problem was solved in post 1980 production. My very early GTSi had the motor replaced at 6K miles. I was told the the problem was ring blowby caused by increased vacum in the injected motor. 308is also had valve breakage problems but I recall that being on later cars.

 

If your shop is very respectable and have done such work before, I'd let them have the whole job. I would however ask for a photo reportation for proof to any next owner - you may not be worried about what is done to it as long as it's fixed, but a next owner most certainly will be.
Also, agree with them on what you would consider acceptable oil consumption - if done right, an engine can be very tight and consume very little. This goves you a leg to stand on if things don't quite work out in the end.
This is also the reason why you should let them provide end-end service, at least you have only one shop to deal with.

 

That is indeed wayyy too much. The first question is of course, do you like the car? And enough to sink in this kind of money? If you sell it as-is, and put on top what you'd sink into it, what can you buy back for that cash? If your mechanic says it'll be 6k, believe him. But that's just cash... what is the value he is offering for it in return? I'd be interested to know if that indeed includes all fluids, bearings, etc.
Thing is with these big jobs, once you start it's sooo tempting to do everything. You toss in a new clutch, crank bearings, timing bearings, timing belts, seals, gaskets, hoses, you detail the engine bay, etc. Before you know it you're looking at 12k when you're done. Especially if all the spares have to come from Ricambi... those prices look extortionate from where I am sitting...

 

I just bought a 456 a couple months back. It had a few little niggles, thought I'd just drive it till the winter and then fix it. But the maintenance was overdue, and in the end I didn't want to risk it. I have put in about 3k euro now, just in parts and fluids alone, and I'm almost done. That's just for a real proper service...! And contrary to yours, I only had the cam covers off, nothing deeper.

Moral: If you decide to bite the bullet, do it right, no bodge job. Otherwise you run the risk of spending your 6k and ending up with an engine that consumes 1 quart every 300 miles. Still 50% better, but not what you had in mind. And you garage will not warrant it.

Can you risk it that the bill might be 2x what you expect? Did the garage do a leakdown on the rest of the cylinders? Are they so-so/OK/excellent? That would give you a good idea what the starting point is. Always do that.

Also I would really go over the estimate with your garage - what is included, are 8x new piston rings included? Bearings? fluids? timing belts? Detailing? And what if it needs new pistons, etc? Not to the dime, but make sure that you know what the most probable and worst-case scenarios are. 6k was quite likely an optimistic one, but just ask.

And only then you have enough info to decide.

 

Sounds like you could rebuild the heads...engine stays in the car. If the valves are fine, should be fairly inexpensive.

I do, however, believe it's always better to rebuild when affordable.

BTW, short block includes NO heads.

 

you have a few options -

sell it and start over , the 308 gtbi is not an epensive car today, so you maybe able to replace it with the same 10k plus the selling of your own

if you love this car, and or has sentimental value to you ... spend the money and fit it all ....

i had my 308 redone ... and it was more than 6k ... it was closer to 20k .. but it was all done..... dont do the rebuild for 10k from t.rutlands.... keep your own matching engine.

 

Tough decision because you're really not giving us all the information.

I think trying to sell it with one cylinder down is a going to be tough. The next guy has to assume it's going to need a complete overhaul. You're only going to attract low ballers and carpetbaggers.

There's a lot of pretty good cars out there at reasonable prices. And, I'm sure your not the kind of guy to hoodwink someone into thinking it's not got a serious problem.

So, if selling is going to be tough, then fixing the problem is the best solution.

I would try to work out a deal with the mechanic to do a partial tear down inspection to see if it needs a full rebuild. If it's just the heads, it's not too bad.

If the rings are gone or the lower bearings, then you're looking at everything. At this point, the mechanic can give you a complete estimate. Then, you can decide if buying a rebuilt is a better deal than having it built locally. A lot depends on the internals of the engine, including any head, piston, or any crankshaft damage. Sometimes buying a rebuilt is cheaper. Sometimes it's not. In any event, you need someone to do the R & R so you're going to need your mechanic to be working with you to lower your costs.

I really don't think "matching numbers" means much on 308's. Having a completely rebuilt motor from a respectable mechanic or organization probably means more to whoever would want it next. I don't see them as museum pieces in the near future.

If a cylinder is down, you don't have too much choice. You either fix it or get rid of it. Driving it is not an option.

So, you may get lucky and just rebuild the heads. To do that, you need to do at least some surgery.

 

Would you put 20K to take the motor back to zero miles? or would you like to throw $10K and hoe head-only will cure the ills?

(*) I have no idea whether 20K is too much or too little. But to me, If I loved a car and wanted to drive it for a long time, I would consider spending as much as the car was worth (with a decently running engine) to put the engine back into pristine condition.

Come to think of it, a leak down test of the engine (at least the 7 still firing cylinders) would isolate the leaks to valves, rings/bore, or both. So, it seems to me that the first step is a through leak down test. Take a look at the numbers, and decide to bail (rebuilt short/long block), heads, or take it back to zero miles (i.e. better than Ruttlands--with no disrespect indended or implied).

In any event, a $10K Ruttlands motor would end up in the $15K range after labor and the other parts (not included) you will find that need refreshing.....

 

90 days for a car that is not a daily driver?

I'm not impressed with that warranty. So if after 91 days and 500 miles of pleasure use the problem recurs they just say "not our problem"?

 

+1

 

Here's the trap that you may get caught in -- Once you take the engine out, there are a whole bunch of things that just make sense to do with the car, especially if you are planning on keeping long term. With the engine out, it is much easier to change all of the hoses on the engine, the fuel lines including the cross-over hoses between the tanks and the filler neck, the coolant hoses, vacuum hoses. It makes sense to consider rebuilding the alternator, and possibly replacing the starter with a new hi-torque starter. You will want to clean up the engine bay. As part of the rebuild, I'm sure they will be changing the belts, tensioner bearings, cam seals and the like. So you might also consider doing a rebuild on the water pump while you are at it.

Other than cost, there is no reason not to do the work while the engine is out. Most of these things are easy and relatively inexpensive to do with the engine out. They are much more expensive and a PITA to do with the engine in the car. And if you are going to keep the car, knowing that all of the stuff was done (especially all of the hoses) will give you peace of mind, and a much more reliable car over the years to come.

Just a thought.

 

Keeping the car seems to be his priority. Nothing I can see has been held back as far as information. He is just wondering if this is the expected ball park range on cost for this kind of work? Does he need to pull the engine to remove the head on the side against the firewall? What is the standard labor time to pull a motor, rebuild it, reinstall and tune? Does anyone other then Rutlands have crate motors for a 308?

 

Your mechanic doesn't need to use a borescope to determine if it is a valve problem. A simple cylinder leakage test will let you know if it is a valve problem, and which valve is causing the problem. This test will let you know if the cause is just the valves or if the piston is part of the problem as well.

Given the fact that those early injected motors had known problems with ring sealing and oil consumption, I would probably go for the full motor rebuild.

In the end you will be happier with an engine that has more power and doesn't use oil and forget about the difference in cost.

 

This post got me thinking about what I spent rebuilding my '83 308. I did a complete rebuild, including trans. I also did all the "while I'm there" items. I pulled the engine myself, and did all the labor except machining and the trans work which I had a specialty shop do. I kept every receipt down to the cans of spray paint. When completed, I spent $12,982.34. Would I do it again? Absolutely.

One thing I learned during this entire process. Do your homework and SHOP around for the parts. There is a big difference between the various vendors. For instance, a complete set of rings cost me less than $200.

 

As far as quality or cost? Also, did you find a shop manual for doing this? I am trying to find a shop/repair manual for my '81 308.

 

Cost mostly. I was surprised on the cost variances for the same part number. In many cases, I searched for alternative parts (see 308 forum/Sticky/ parts cross ref.) There is no need to buy a part in a Ferrari box when the same part is available from the OEM at less cost. Also, when redoing the trans, I found a good used gear cluster that was a fraction of the cost of a new cluster. (That was the only used part I purchased during the rebuild). I found the shop manual good for specs, while the parts manual most helpful in assembly. I was also not bashful in asking questions of those more experienced than myself in engine building.

Both manuals for the QV are available online - I suspect that is the same for the 2 valve injected models.

For those contemplating rebuilding any part of the 308, do not be intimidated by the Ferrari name. There is nothing magical or mystical about the machinery. Common sense and the proper tools go a long way.

 

Every manual I seem to find is either a parts list or exploded view. I want to find something like Haynes or Chilton that explains the steps in a project.

Very familiar with the crossover section. Don't really care if it is a Pure Blood car, just that it keeps running.

+1

 

There is no Haynes manual for these cars. There is a Workshop manual that gives you all the tolerances and the sequence of disassembly/re-assembly etc. Eg at http://dino308gt4.com (the carb engines all used the same shop manual AFAIK.)

If you want to know how to do an engine properly, buy Guy Croft's book on Tuning and Modifying Fiat/Lancia engines. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Modifying-Tuning-Lancia-Twin-Cam-Engines/dp/0947981985 or go to his web site: http://www.guy-croft.com/

Gerrit
http://dino308gt4.com