What's the bottom line on a 512BBi Clutch? | FerrariChat

What's the bottom line on a 512BBi Clutch?

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by 2dinos, Nov 8, 2011.

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  1. 2dinos

    2dinos F1 Rookie

    Jan 13, 2007
    3,060
    As part of an EO service on an injected Boxer, I installed a brand new clutch pack, T/O bearing, and bearing support (the part that the bearing mounts to and slides). All parts are factory parts from the dealer.

    The clutch pack looks beautiful with an aluminum clutch cover and is made by AP racing. The part that was in the car had a steel clutch cover.

    The clutch is very positive in its action, and as smooth as could be expected, but the gripe is it engages over a very short distance giving almost a "toggle" effect, unless you are aware, and control it carefully at the point of engagement. I have checked, and double checked the engineering given for all of the arm geometry etc. I even got a second opinion from a very talented mechanic who checked all of the points that could be checked. I've heard quality complaints here and there which goes with a hobby full of particular enthusiasts; but, at the end of the day, what is one supposed to do? Only use the steel cover clutches rebuilt? Are these "toggle" acting clutches defective?
     
  2. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3
    BANNED

    Just an opinion, and to be clear, I'm not a Boxer owner, but a 550 Maranello owner and was in a similar situation as you with a new clutch that was very grabby.

    The 550's stock clutch is a single disc type, lined with organic friction material. I had this replaced with a triple disc, metallic lined clutch with lightened flywheel from OS Giken. Metallic lined clutches are notorious for having "very" positive engagements, and the additional number of discs only makes it worse.

    To mitigate the On/Off toggle switch behavior, I "retuned" the hydraulic circuit so that the slave cylinder would have a shorter stroke, for the normal stroke of the master. To do this, the master must displace less fluid when it strokes than before, which means its bore must be reduced.

    There are two ways of doing this:

    1. Reducing the bore by having the master rebuilt and sleeved. I don't recommend this, or I should say, I don't know anyone I could recommend to do this. I do know a shop in California that does this, and that I would NOT recommend, however.

    2. Finding a similar master cylinder with a smaller bore.

    I believe your Boxer has a master cylinder with an 11/16" bore, so you could try to find a similar master with a 5/8" bore. I don't think you'll find one in the Ferrari parts catalog, but you may find one from an Alfa - they use the same vendor for master cylinders, and it's rumored some of the earlier Alfas had 5/8" masters.

    After an unsuccessful search for an Alfa master cylinder, I resorted to fitting an aftermarket 5/8" bore master cylinder to my 550, and had to do a little adapting of it to make it work. It's very functional, and has improved the engagement of the clutch tremendously, making the car much easier to drive. As a side benefit, the clutch pedal is quite a bit lighter now too.
     
  3. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    May 27, 2004
    19,910
    FL
    Full Name:
    Sean
    I have the same issue. i dont mind the on off effect, but the clutch engages at then end of the pedal travel, ie far from the floor which makes modulation difficult, any ideas on a cure adjustment?
     
  4. 2dinos

    2dinos F1 Rookie

    Jan 13, 2007
    3,060
    I'm warming up to the idea by Cribbj. I was thinking of something like this before and glad to hear it actually played out well. In the Boxer case, I would probably go after the slave simply because access is much beter than the master.

    One big HOWEVER here. The Boxer is rock stock, and I even went so far as get the clutch pack from the dealer as well. Soooo, is this clutch action something that's just not engineered right on stock replacement parts? Or is there some service bulletin telling of different clutch components etc that must be changed?

    Many thanks!
     
  5. 2dinos

    2dinos F1 Rookie

    Jan 13, 2007
    3,060
    Thank you for the response. I'm a big 550 fan! What led you away from the stock 550 clutch setup?
     
  6. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3
    BANNED

    Thanks! I'm a big Boxer fan - wanna swap titles? :)

    15K miles seems to be a fairly typical interval for changing the OEM 550 clutch, and I just felt that wasn't good enough, so I was looking for something more robust, plus I wanted a lighter pedal so that my wife could drive the car without straining, if she wanted to. Multiplate clutches typically don't require pressure plates as heavy as single disc clutches to handle the same torque, due to the increased area of their friction surfaces, so you wind up with a lighter clutch pedal.

    Just FYI, I'm not the only owner who's done this. FChatter mk_e also "retuned" his hydraulic system ratio with very good success after he changed to a multidisc clutch on his supercharged 308 project.

    I agree, go after the slave if it's easier to get to, and I've done just that for other cars. Obviously you need to perform the opposite operation on the slave as the master, ie to get a shorter stroke on the slave, you need to overbore it, or find a slave that already has a larger bore. If you overbore, be very careful which shop you choose to do it, and don't forget, they'll have to come up with a new set of seals and a new piston for it. You also need to be sure your slave casting has plenty of reserve thickness for the overbore. Start with a 1/16" overbore, and if it doesn't produce the desired result, go for another 1/16". A 1/8" difference on either the master or slave produces a really big change in the stroke and in the clutch pedal feel. For example, if you change to a 5/8" master from a 3/4", the stroke of the slave will be 1/4" shorter for the same stroke on the master as before, which is a 30% reduction in the slave stroke.

    The change in pedal effort will be proportional to the change in bore area, which is the same as the 30% difference above, so your pedal should be roughly 30% lighter. mk_e and I both refer to our clutch pedals as being "Honda-light"

    Can't speak to the issue of the components not being engineered correctly. I'm really not qualified to give an opinion on Boxer specific parts. We 550 owners certainly have many frustrations about the quirky engineering in our cars. Part of the "charm", right?

    Your clutch could be nearing the end of its service life, unless it's always been that way? If it's always been like that, you could try shortening the actuator rod on the master by a few turns. Then you'll probably have to readjust the height of your pedal. I also don't like a clutch engaging near the top of the pedal - that's just asking for slipping problems. IMO, it ought to start engaging within an inch or two of the bottom of the pedal, be fully engaged 3/4 of the way up, and have some free play on top so you know the master & slave are fully retracted.

    Unfortunately , our 550's have a hydraulic release bearing type of slave of the type that Ferrari calls a "constant contact" bearing. In other words, there's a spring that holds the bearing's face in constant contact with the fingers of the pressure plate. So in theory there is no free play between the release bearing and the clutch. Where we can adjust for free play is between the pedal and the master. Since you Boxer owners apparently have a more conventional slave setup, you ought to be able to "tune" your master or slave actuator rod lengths to get the engage/disengage points where they should be.
     
  7. 2dinos

    2dinos F1 Rookie

    Jan 13, 2007
    3,060
    So true! I have a good friend I used to race 308's around with who says, "How we love them so!" This was stated usually around periods of checkbook ravaging :)

    The clutch is still relatively new <1,000 mi.

    Thanks for your detailed response. 'How much' to make a change in bore is a very good question. You've given me an idea I might play with and that being trying to measure the force for say a BMW clutch pedal, then do some calculations - which leads me to one of my favorite sayings - "Everything works on paper".
     

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