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What's the fuss about same sex marriages?

Discussion in 'Other Off Topic Forum' started by JimSchad, Feb 24, 2004.

  1. JimSchad

    JimSchad Guest

    Why all the uproar about same sex marriages? Is it purely a moral issue related to religious beliefs or is there some economic impact?

    My point is what are the cons to allowing it other than you think it is morally wrong?

    Please not looking for a religious bashing thread....I want an analytical approach.
    Thanks.
     
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  3. mfennell70

    mfennell70 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
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    Wouldn't it be a positive economic impact from a taxes perspective to let two wage earner gay couples pay the marriage penalty?
     
  4. Tyler

    Tyler F1 Rookie

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    I don't understand all the protest either. I can't think of any cons other than moral. Marriage in the GOVS eyes should be about property rights and not about religion. I think they should have the same rights as anyone else.
     
  5. darth550

    darth550 Five Time F1 World Champ
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    My twist...

    Homosexuality is simply natures' way to counter global over-population.

    For in the end...Mother Nature ALWAYS wins.

    DL
     
  6. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    I agree with you 100% Jim.

    There are two components to marriage...

    1) Religious - Opposition based on beliefs.

    2) Legal - Opposition based on legal married couples get benefits.

    I think...

    1) God loves everyone.

    2) Some things are none of my business, people can do what they want.

    3) The world is overpopulated and more gay couples would lower the birth rate.

    4) It's been shown that homosexuality has a genetic component, so why go against nature. We're not the only animal that practices homosexual behavior.

    5) You can have love without sex and sex without love. Sometimes it's more special when the two are together though.

    6) After having many gay friends I am convinced there's nothing "wrong" with them. I think it's as natural as me being a female lusting horn dog. Why should they be persecuted and prosecuted?

    ---

    In closing, many homophobics actually are fighting their own homosexual feelings. I experienced this first hand before my friend accepeted his homosexualality and also have seen several studies about arousal of homophobics was higher watching gay porn. Not like there's anything wrong with that :), but I'm sick of homosexuals being persecuted and prosecuted.
     
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  8. tifosi69

    tifosi69 Formula 3

    Dec 23, 2003
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    Darwin Rules!! Economically speaking I think the objections arise with regards to health insurance coverage, tax deductability, etc. My problem with the whole issue is that the San Fran mayor is blatantly disobeying state law and NOBODY including the Gover - Nator is doing anything about it. I heard a GAY activist on TV the other night who is AGAINST the marriages and what the mayor is doing and he made a good point: if a pro-NRA conservative mayor said that the concealed permit to carry weapons laws were wrong and said: "hey, come one-come all down to city hall and I will issue concealed carry permits to ANYONE that wants one.." the left wing, pinko, hate America, PC crowd would go ballistic and INSIST on adherence to the rule of law. Food for thought....
     
  9. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    very true.

    the issue is a legal one (and i am sure the numerous lawyers on the board can expound on this better than i can). the term marriage, carries a different weight regarding inheritance, property rights, taxes etc, some of which are beneficial and promoted by the government as a way of indirectly promoting population growth within stable families.

    gays have the same legal rights of married couples in many states within the 'civil union' agreement, and so i don't see why this is not sufficient. if they really want to be termed 'married' , then i suppose somebody could set up some version of civil union that could incorporate that word, but still be distinct from heterosexual marriage.

    i don't really care what they want to do, but i am also very bothered by the flouting of the law. it just isn't right. if you want to change something there are well thought out and legal paths to do it in.

    the joke is going to be on many of these couples once they try to apply for any kind of 'marriage' benefit in their home states by showing their san francisco licences - sorry invalid.
     
  10. mondial85

    mondial85 Karting

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    I agree, who are we to interfere with someones love. Especially since we now have a good idea that it is nature rather than nurture that is responsible for it...lets not punish someone for something they have no control over. The only somewhat valid argument i've heard against it, is that marriage is a sacred institution and allowing this would make a joke of marriage. In answer to that I say that the divorce rate is like 51% nowadays, so heterosexual's have already made a joke of this "sacred" institution.
     
  11. karmavore

    karmavore Formula 3

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    Someone, I think on NPR, said that "marriage" should be strictly a religious term, should be solely up to the church, and the government should be in the "civil union" business only. i.e., you go to the church to be married in the eyes of God, yadda, yadda.. and the court house to bind yourself to another person in order gain all the legal benefits to "marriage."

    I think the issue is around the religious term "marriage." Whether or not gays can "marry" should be up to the church, and whether or not they can inherit each others assets, etc. should be up to the government.

    Call it what it is, legal rights, stop using the word "marriage," and SEPARATE CHURCH AND STATE DAMNIT!!!

    Luke.
     
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  13. Ferruccio

    Ferruccio Formula Junior

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    I have a small problem with gays marrying. I think its bad for marriage. Marriage is between a man and a woman who love each other. Not two sexually confused men. (I know not politically correct to think but never the less truthful) But the big issue here is it will end up helping gays adopt children (which I think is completely wrong).
     
  14. karmavore

    karmavore Formula 3

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    ...yeah, they're much better off rotting away in the foster care system.

    I agree, it's not your 50's wholesome family ideal, and daddy might not have tips on how to catch a football or score with some honey, but if there's love and caring, what the _uck, who cares??

    Luke.
     
  15. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    Amen to this!
     
  16. Ferruccio

    Ferruccio Formula Junior

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    karmavore
    Get the facts straight there is a waiting list for adoption years long. Foster kids are older most of the time. My point is there are plenty of families (man and wife) that would love to adopt kids. Why put them in incapable hands??????
     
  17. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    7,021
    I dont see this. My marriage will not be affected by gay/lesbian marriages--Why would yours?

    What makes you think that two men (or women) who love each other are sexually confused?
     
  18. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    The problem with same sex marriages is that a bunch of tight-assed, political, religious jerk-offs have big-time inferiority and homophobic complexes... It blows me away that someone can't get health insurance or two people can't apply for a homeowner application or loan or whatever, 'cause they're gay... It's like "gay" people are running around raping other people; "gay" people are just like "us"... So many people are too full of themselves these days to just let this whole "gay" thing rest...

    Sorry i didn't have anything real to contribute to your thread, Jim, just blowing off some steam...
     
  19. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    What's wrong with "gays" adopting children...?

    How is it bad for marriage...?

    Marriage is a union of two people who love each other; it doesn't necessarily have to be a man and a woman... Why do you think two men who love each other are sexually confused...? You're right, it's not "politically correct" but it isn't truthful, either...




    Lastly...
    Let me ask you, have you ever seen two women engaging in any type of sexual activity and liked it...?
     
  20. Tyler

    Tyler F1 Rookie

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    Agree! What's wrong with letting same-sex couples marry and adopt a child. If they meet the adoption standards then I say more power to them. What I find truly sickening is the number of people who will bring a child into this world with no intent or ability to care for it.

    Health insurance is coming around. Many Fortune 500 companies health insurance covers both employees and their spouses or SSDP(same-sex domestic partner).
     
  21. JimSchad

    JimSchad Guest

    stick to the topic. you're getting in to opinion by calling people confused and incapable. That implies that all heterosexuals are perfect. Not so. A couple just beat their 3 month old to death here last week. Hurray for the chosen ones! NOT!

    Adoption: good point as you get into the gray area of parenting etc. and what is a family.

    Bad for marriage: yes goes against the ward cleaver ideal, but did anyone watch my big fat obnoxious fiance or bachelorette, bachelor, joe millionarie, who wants to marry a millionaire. It isn't sacred now.

    I like the idea of church/marriage and state/civil union. Hadn't thougth about seperation of the 2. Good point.
     
  22. Schnelles Fraulein

    Apr 1, 2003
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    it's not going to be this way for long.. just like way back when "women" couldn't vote, and "women" couldn't do this and couldn't do that and had no rights, times change and things become more equal.
    the religious and insecure a-holes who are against same-sex marriage should enjoy their closedmindedness now, cause soon laws will change and people will start realizing that "gays" are human beings too.. i find it amusing that some states recognize marriage between cousins, but won't recognize a same-sex marriage. pfft...
     
  23. formula1joe

    formula1joe Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
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    I believe marriage for thousands of years has been between a man and a women. Whether it was performed in a church, court house, or in some pasture under a tree, it is the bringing together of 2 bodies to become 1 and too further themselves by each other. To do this naturally, 1 part must be male, the other part a female. You can not have 2 yens and no yang, that creates an unbalanced society.

    For thousands of year society has fought on this issue. The native americans had a word for gay men called 2 souls. These men had to go through special ceremonies to determine if they were allowed to have to souls, but in the end, they still had to be with a women. Much like the Athenians did back during the Roman Empire. Men openly had sex with other men, but it was looked down upon to want to marry another male or occupy a house with one. It was society's crea for they had to marry a women.

    So now we look at ourselves to see if we are better then those we judge. Are we better then the gay guy who wants to marry his so called life partner? Religously some might think so. Athletically, I have seen alot of buff gay guys, but what Football, Baseball, or F1 driver (had to throw that one in) is going to be openly gay during their sports career. Mentally, there are probably alot of smart gay guys, I just don't know or can think of any.

    So what makes them different? They can no procreate, it is simple as that. But not to allow 2 people not to be totgether in the eyes of the law just because they can not procreate might be kinda of silly, espicially if we can tax the bejesus out of them for wanting to do it.

    I am not for gays, can stand the act, let alone who decides to get to go first. But why not create a civil union between 2 people? Because someone says it is wrong, and when pressed why, they say because "god said so." Well to those individuals, I say bring god on down and let him speak for himself.

    Society changes, the time change, even if you let gays marry or have civil unions, they will always have the stigmatism that goes along with being gay.

    just my 2 cents
     
  24. writerguy

    writerguy F1 Veteran

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    Well there is that odd right wing side of things that seems to think Homosexuals breed homosexuals..... uuummm Heterosexuals breed Homosexuals...

    But that being said it really boils down to this. former Canadian Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau said "The Government has no business in the bedrooms of the people"

    Part of the issue is that the tendency of people to want to know about and comment on other peoples lives. If two people (male female or other) want to get married I say let them.... they can then loose half their stuff and be miserable like the rest of us.... (sorry feeling little bitter trying to unravel my marriage right now...)
     
  25. Ferruccio

    Ferruccio Formula Junior

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    I see I have hit a nerve lets try to keep this from becoming a flame (no pun inteaded) war and keep it a friendly disagreement.


    Mitch Alsup

    It’s just another problem that is discrediting the marriage institution. Now this binding contract between a man and women can be void for $199, can be between a man a women and 20 million viewers etc. Its another nail in the coffin. Maybe 20 years from now it will be a punchline to a joke?

    Nature did not intend for 2 men or 2 women to have sexual relationship. Furthermore every gay person I have ever met has a very warped since of reality. IMO
     
  26. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    A flame war...? So now you're making fun of "gay" people...?

    How are same sex marriages discrediting the institution of marriage...? Marriage isn't discredited enough...? Divorce is a TREND these days... VERY FEW PEOPLE are truly, happily married; i see so many marriages these days that are failing miserably... They're all heterosexual unions, too...

    Nature didn't intend for homosexuality...? No...? Do you have proof that nature did intend for this...?

    Every "gay" person you've met has had a very warped sense of reality...? How so...? Please go into detail, i'd love to hear this...
     
  27. whart

    whart F1 Veteran
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    Dec 5, 2001
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    If we introduced morality into hetrosexual marriage, we might have to contend with issues like adultery, child abuse and the general dysfunctional nature of virtually every family i have ever met, my own included. As a matter of legal right, should we differentiate? What about interracial marriage? What about mid-50's guys that marry their 23 year old bimbo secretaries? Or folks who are asexual or simply impotent (ie they can't procreate, thereby failing to meet one of the "natural law" justifications for marriage). Man, i think our society has alot better to do than worry about which kind of orfice someone likes. Or, whether they have body hair.

    Gay marriage is not what signals the breakdown in our society. "Healthy," "moral" and "normal" families often don't help the individuals that comprise them. The things that seem to ring true in the good ol' USA are money, celebrity, good looks and power (not necessarily in that order). Occasionally, we get reminded of what's really important - death, disease, etc. Or someone exhibits selflessness or heroism, and we all acknowledge how rare that is. But, mostly, its an eat what you kill world, with little compassion or time for understanding, beyond our own immediate needs. So, if gay marriage is abnormal, contrary to organized religion, or otherwise not consistent with the virtues we collectively believe in, maybe a little break from "normal" could be OK.
     
  28. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    Then why does it happen? Seems to me anything that happens is part of nature, who are we to judge nature? Several species of animals have homosexual relations, are you saying all those species aren't natural.
     

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