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What’s the latest on additional Pista allocations?

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by Thecadster, Apr 6, 2019.

  1. BaronM69

    BaronM69 Formula Junior
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    Aug 29, 2005
    793
    Washington DC / FR
    The Pista is a superior car to F8. Not from a performance perspective (only by small margin) but by design work and assembly.
    F8 is nowhere near Pista.
     
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  2. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 17, 2001
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    Are there already US spec Pista for sale?
     
  3. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2004
    473
    Austin TX
    OK,

    not that this has any business being in a Pista thread, but, here is my current observations of 812 production:

    [*1*]
    UK is done, books are closed, dealers have been told by Ferrari it is ok to sell their demos (why have demos of a car you can no longer order)

    WHY?

    Best reason is Brexit, tariff could be 10% on imports:

    https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/industry-news/brexit/

    from link above:

    On top of that, Porsche told the BBC that it may have to charge up to 10% more on the list price of cars it sells in the UK post-Brexit.

    [*2*]
    EU production is being accelerated, from observations right here on FChat, customers that were told their car would be 2020/2021 are being told to finalize their orders now, for basic orders car can be produced in 4 months, more complicated can take years (alligator leather interior with stripes, hand painted shields and other take time)

    WHY?

    Best reason is Ferrari's SVM (Small Volume Manufacturer) status with EU gave them a break until 2020 where Ferrari will pay additional CO2 emissions fines, so it all about avoiding those fines as much as possible.

    But, Ferrari supposedly has until 2021 for full fleet CO2 compliance (still true):

    https://corporate.ferrari.com/sites/ferrari15ipo/files/ferrari_nv_annual_report_12.31.2018.pdf

    (page 58 above)

    however, starting 2020 (calendar year) Ferrari's CO2 'numbers' will be based upon WLTP/RDE "laboratory tests" rather than previous laboratory tests which is going to (very very likely) increase the amount of CO2 penalties Ferrari pays for each of its new cars registered in EU countries.

    (page 59 above)

    and see the following (search on 'co2')

    https://ec.europa.eu/growth/content/clean-mobility-new-emissions-tests-become-mandatory-all-new-cars-1-september-2018_en

    Above shows Sept 2018 start, but Ferrari, due to its SVM status was given until 2020(1/1/2020)

    AS AN ASIDE you may be wondering what constitutes the "production date" for a Ferrari, best I can tell is when it reaches status 6o in MODIS (finishing).

    [*3*]
    China production (less than 700 units per year) is also being accelerated as China is closely following EU's lead, starting July 1 2020, also China has a history of spontaneously banning cars:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/02/climate/china-cars-pollution.html

    [*4*]
    GPF, I believe the 812 will be fitted with the GPF starting September 2019 (this year) due to the production date being when the car is complete and the basic 812 takes 4-5 months to build (you may be thinking why not starting in August? they take August as holiday...) because RDE testing will require such low amounts of particulate matter (10x less than current limit) Ferrari has to fit each 812 with a GPF otherwise the EU will literally block 812 sales in EU until it is certified compliant

    Some good reading on this GPF topic:

    https://www.aecc.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Real-world-emissions-measurements-of-a-GDI-vehicle-without-and-with-GPF.pdf

    WHY?

    Because Ferrari will continue to make 812s for EU (including the unannounced by highly expected 812 Spider), same for China. I would suspect there will be a higher MSRP for those markets due to any additional CO2 non-compliance penalties.

    And, historically Ferrari does not make different exhaust systems for different countries, all 812 production will be fitted with GPF devices (one per exhaust header, i.e. 2)

    [*5*]
    812 production for the USA market (Ferrari North America, or FNA) is already increasing, I think they are literally running out of orders to fulfill for EU, so allocations should follow soon in USA, maybe 3-4 months, definitely by fall.

    So, yes, long meandering way to get here, but yes, I strongly suspect 812 production for FNA will essentially double in the next 12 months and continue from there. However, the GPF cannot realistically be removed (you would have to re-map the ECU and disable various sensors), so, those 812s fitted with GPF will likely weigh 70kg more (150 pounds) or so for the devices + additional heat shielding since it will be placed as close to the exhaust headers as possible and I am not certain if the HP rating will be reduced because the GPF definitely reduces power, but to make it up, will they crank up the 812 a little (they have about 5% more they can easiy tweak, that may be enough) but what about the sound? Well, the GPF can also be an acoustic device, so, maybe it will be fine other than the car will be heavier and have an extra complication in the GPF devices. For instance, when the GPF needs to be regenerated, if your driving is not causing sufficient heat then the ECU will intentionally lean out the air fuel mixture (add oxygen) to cause the car to burn hotter, that's going to be a possible complication that Ferrari has never had to deal with, so it might take a few tries before that's dialed in. So, could be more warranty work on such cars...

    Whew, thanks for reading, I should start a newsletter or something :)
     
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  4. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2004
    473
    Austin TX
    I believe there is a 6 month lock up on selling (from date registered/titled), so, could be very soon, I think there has been a few sold early but the dealer gets penalized, I think first USA deliveries were in Sept, definitely by November...
     
  5. BaronM69

    BaronM69 Formula Junior
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    Aug 29, 2005
    793
    Washington DC / FR
    Thanks for this great summary!
     
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  6. markcs

    markcs Karting

    Oct 23, 2016
    109
    There is a small car show at Tewantin on the Sunshine Coast this weekend
    might put my Ferrari cap and shirt on and see if anybody jumps on me offering Pista allocation !!!!!
     
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  7. markcs

    markcs Karting

    Oct 23, 2016
    109
    Guys
    Just went out for lunch
    I guy came up to me and said
    “Where do I go for a Piss”
    I replied
    “Apparently Geneva”
    He looked at me very strangely?
     
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  8. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2004
    473
    Austin TX
    Glad to help!

    And, there is one more to add

    [*6*]
    MY2021 is final year for 812

    Why? This:

    http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-19-1793_en.htm

    details here:

    https://ec.europa.eu/docsroom/documents/34588

    Specifically these items (below) that will impact physical chassis design, cannot image Ferrari would redesign for one model year, as it is presumed the 812 would have a 5 year run. Of course, Ferrari could get a deferment for one year, if so, this point is moot.

    Full-width frontal occupant protection crash test - improved seatbelts (cars and vans)

    Head impact zone enlargement for pedestrians and cyclists -safety glass in case of crash (cars and vans)

    Pole side impact occupant protection (cars, vans)
     
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  9. JimPVB

    JimPVB Formula Junior
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    Apr 24, 2016
    522
    Florida
    So...what specifically about about the "design work" and "assembly" of the Pista, and design work and assembly fo the F8, make the F8 "nowhere near the Pista?" Regarding assembly, are you saying the workers in the F8 assembly area are inferior to the workers in the Pista area? Just curious.

    Jim
     
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  10. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 Rookie
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    Nov 25, 2012
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    Arizona
    Pista and F8 are virtually identical. Its just that Pista is more rare so will potentially retain value better. But no guarantees on that either.
     
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  11. 09Scuderia

    09Scuderia Formula 3
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    Tim&Julie
    The Pista has a ton of parts (fenders etc) made out of CF....many things that are Pista specific. And no I won't post the differences between the F8 vs Pista. Google or search this site.

    The Pista will always be a special series car vs a production sports car.
     
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  12. sampelligrino

    sampelligrino Karting

    Apr 16, 2017
    145
    HNL/LA
    Different strokes for different folks but the Pista is the best looking special series V8 since the 360 CS IMO. And from what we've heard, potentially the last ICE mid engine V8 special series from Ferrari for what it's worth

    Forget HP or aero etc, if equal opportunity and I was going for a F8 I would swing the extra 50-100 or whatever the delta is for the Pista
     
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  13. BaronM69

    BaronM69 Formula Junior
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    Aug 29, 2005
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    Washington DC / FR
    The F8 is to the Pista exactly what the 488GTB is to the Pista, except maybe mechanically.

    F8 engine is the same than Pista, and interior (add CF options) which is virtually the same.
    I don't know about suspensions, radiators...which were a step above 488 GTB on Pista.

    Now in terms of exterior design, materials used for the panels, you need to see those two cars in the metal to understand.
    Basically, 488 GTB or F8 are much less "carved", crafted.

    They kept the "hole" carved in the front. It is just so tiny that to me it looks bad and cheap.
    They did the same in the back.
    So the F8 has aero attribute and panels and parts which are probably far less expensive to produce, build, and that is why while initially very excited about the F8, I would not trade a Pista for an F8.
     
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  14. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 Rookie
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    Nov 25, 2012
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    Will they make a F8 Pista? If not, your comment about the last pure ICE mid engine v8 without electrification is accurate.
     
  15. JimPVB

    JimPVB Formula Junior
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    Apr 24, 2016
    522
    Florida

    Okay thanks, basically the "nowhere near the Pista" comment is because you like the look (general design) of the interior and exterior of the Pista better, and that's fine, to each his own. I thought maybe I missed some posts somewhere in the forum that justified the nowhere near the Pista comment, and might change my thinking on the F8. While I don't dismiss the value of the Pista, and would likely have ordered one if given the opportunity, once I saw the F8 I decided I liked its look better, and given it might be difficult to get the Pista Spider model (I like convertibles) versus the F8 Spider, it's the better choice for me. The way I configure my cars results in a $70K+ savings with the F8 as well, and I see nothing in the Pista that justifies that difference, for me.


    Jim
     
  16. 09Scuderia

    09Scuderia Formula 3
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    BTW, I don't think the Pista and the F8 share the same motor.

    I believe that people are guessing because the data appears similar...graphs and such.

    Are the Pista's engine internals the same as the F8?...not likely. Why spend the $$ that is required for a Pista motor for a production sports car? The numbers are similar (if not the same) but the nature of how a race motor vs a non-race motor feel/ sound/ perform are different.

    Unless there is something official from Ferrari.....too soon to tell.
     
  17. LVP488

    LVP488 Formula 3

    Jan 21, 2017
    1,946
    Each to their own, I chose an F8 over a Pista just like I'd choose a 458 over a Scuderia.
    I may consider a used Pista instead of a new F8 if the Pista prices crash though ;)
     
  18. Eilig

    Eilig Formula 3

    Aug 31, 2001
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    Cavallo
    In some ways, the Pista vs F8 is similar to the Porsche 911R vs GT3 Touring. Having driven both the 911R and GT3 Touring, it is my opinion that the 911R is a more playful car and still has a different dynamic and personality than the later, lower cost GT3 Touring. Still, there are plenty who bought a GT3 Touring and saved $XXX,XXX and swear it is essentially the same car. There are also guys who took a bath on a 911R buying it at super-inflated prices in the aftermarket too soon after it came out. Lessons to be learned here regarding Pista vs F8? Time will tell I guess.

    Per my taste, I'd choose the 911R, provided it were bought at the right price. Whereas the GT3 Touring will be replaced and forgotten about by the next "latest and greatest," the 911R will be remembered and always special as a limited car. My thinking is same regarding Pista vs F8.
     
  19. 458-Italia

    458-Italia Formula 3

    Jan 10, 2014
    1,474
    France
    it's nice to dream :)
     
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  20. Johnnugget

    Johnnugget Karting

    Jan 19, 2018
    99
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    John Nugget
    From the videos the engines are build with the same components. (Inconel headers, lighter internals, etc.) Some parts are optional, f.e. the carbon intake from the Pista is a separate option on the F8 price list.
    The Pista generates max power output at 8000rpm, the F8 does this already at 7000rpm, alining maximum torque and power even closer.

    Biggest differences might be the petrol particle filters in the F8's exhaust system. But listen to the Huracan Evo and you will notice that they managed to keep the sound quite nicely.

    And of course there might be a different software for the engine and transmission making the F8 less aggressive over the Pista.
     
  21. rockminster

    rockminster Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Nov 20, 2003
    573
    SF Bay Area
    I’m a new Pista owner, well, will be within the next week.

    I think the F8 looks fabulous. I especially like the styling updates to the rear of the car, the quad taillights look beautiful to my eye and provide some nice balance to the rear end.

    At no time since the launch of F8 did I think twice or have any reservations about my Pista order. The Pista will be the harder edged and more unique car, which is what I want.

    Also, in comparing the Pista and F8, I’ve seen a few posts that seem to equate purchase price with ultimate cost of ownership - they are not the same. I understand wanting to pay a lower price (F8), but once both cars have settled in (not the newest, shiny item) the depreciation on the F8 will be be significantly more than the Pista.






    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  22. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2004
    473
    Austin TX
    100% not the same, the F8 will have GPF fitted, that alone adds some weight and will have more work to breathe out the exhaust...
     
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  23. PJxxx

    PJxxx Karting
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    PJ Cusano
    Urine? I mean “you’re in!” da club
     
  24. martisracing

    martisracing Rookie

    Nov 2, 2011
    49
    The final UK allocations were back in Feb for us B list people. I was lucky to get an allocation and mine is due to arrive early 2020
    If the F8 has GPF the exhaust note will really be effected as it is a turbo engine. This is a big issue for all manufacturers. If you watch the launch video of the F8 on track the exhaust does sound very quiet and in many cases the the tyre squeal sounded louder. Certain manufacturers are looking at synthetically producing exhaust noise to get it back with GPF
    With regard to the Hurricane evo rember that is a na engine so will not be so effected as an already quiter turbo engine
    With regard to volumes I was always told by the dealer I use that volumes would be lower than the Speciale. I managed to order my Speciale with no problems at all. I was offered allocations from a couple of uk dealers. That was never the case with the Pista. I think the estimate of less than 2000 world wide is probably spot on
     
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  25. Gullwing

    Gullwing Karting
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    Aug 30, 2016
    172
    Likewise I'm on the B list and got an allocation in Feb just before the F8 was announced.
     
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