I'm not trying to ignite another which oil to use worthless rant but here goes. I was at a Porsche racing constructors' shop last week to get some advice on some things and when I mentioned Mobil 1 he said use it no more! His applications are for the track and he has 30 years experience building all sorts of Porsche race cars for PCA, SCCA, Rolex and Petit LeMans customers. This is for my track car so my I'm listening intently when he says that they've changed the additives package and it's just not the same oil anymore so he's switched to Royal Purple. I've been using Mobil 1 for over 20 years in all my vehicles and I have noticed that in the stores there seem to be way too many "versions" of their synthetics these days. I'm not looking for a recommendation on oil, i'm just wondering what hard facts anyone has about this subject as to how and whether Mobil 1 has changed?
Smart man. Agree the formula is not the same and, in hindsight, my last oil change i heard a bit more clatter behind my ears and bet you it was the new 0W-40. Did an old flush using a different oil and special additive and am now 'flushing' with 0W-30 Valvolene dino oil. The change in engine sound from previous M1 to Valvolene is NOT subtle, the V has the engine less clanky. This reminds me, need to return three cases of M1 for Shell Rotella T 5W-40.
I am using Redline oils now where I previously used 0W-30 Mobil One. I went thinner to the RL 5W-20 for the Murcielago and Maybach. The Enzo gets Castrol Syntec European Formula 0W-30. The OEM recommendations for these cars are: Enzo - 10W-60 Shell Helix Ultra Racing Maybach - 0W-40 Mobil 1 Murcielago - Agip 5W-40 aehaas
I've been leery of Mo1 since they had to recall their 0W30 a few years back. It seems like they're constantly fiddling around with the formula. I'm getting too old to do a whole oil research effort every oil change, and every oil study on Mo1 is obsolete before it hits the servers, since what's on the shelves seems to vary week by week. The Italians still seem happy enough with the Agip I bought in bulk a while back. What worries me is that the EVO's warranty specifically calls out Mo1. And I haven't found a local source for Valvoline synth. I must be old fashioned, but if I have to mail-order everything, why in heck am I putting up with DC metro traffic? I could live in Idaho if I'm going to have to do all my shopping through the Internet.
Seems that the extended formula of Mobil 1 is not 100% synthetic but is part dino oil. Nontheless I just saw a research test that compared 100% Mobil 1 and Amsoil. While the tests took both oils to 12-14 thousand miles they claimed the Mobil 1 had a slight edge in acid reduction because of greater amounts of calcium in the additive package. Mobil 1 pure synthetic has Polyalphaolefins basestocks and is still outstanding oil for street use while it is reported that Amsoil contains some Diesters and Polyalphaolefins. Redline on the other hand contains pure Polyolester basestocks. To further ad confusion to the mix I have just read where 80% of all the 24hr du Mons starters had Neo oil in them which has pure Diester basestocks in their oil. The choices seem to be expanding.
Just looked at the Amsoil site and the data showing Mobil 1 vs Amsoil. The data shows some close and not so close comparisons between the two. Not that Mobil 1 is all that bad, just for the cost, Amsoil looks to be the better value considering the type of protection we all want in our exotics.
There was a thread on BITOG whether Mobil 1 was now a Grp III basestock instead of Group IV (Polyalfaolefin or PAO). That is less important than the fact that ZDDP (Zinc and Phosophorus) has been lowered in the newer formulations of not only Mobil 1 but all API approved oils that are "Energy Conserving" This link provides a gist of what is going on with the reformulated oils. http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html
I've noticed additional noise with the M1 Extended Performance thanks to the reformulation. I've used M1 for a hundred thousand miles and the reformulation was an immediate difference. I made the perma-switch to Valvoline 5w40 SynPower. BITOG is an excellent resource.
FWIW, from another site...I have no personal opinion on the validity of the test. http://www.animegame.com/cars/Oil%20Tests.pdf According to their analysis, Royal Purple, Penrite and Valvoline look good, Mobil 1 and Redline rank near the bottom. Gary
After doing research on Mobil One (standard 100%, not Extended) and Rotella T for concentrations of ZDDP for our vintage racing cars, I've discovered that the Rotella T has 1210 ppm ZDDP concentration and Mobil One (15W-50) has 1200 ppm. That's all I know... -Peter (use Redline in the race cars, Castrol TWS Motorsport in my personal car and see no reason to change from using and recommending Mobil One for our customer's street cars)
Worthless test. They issued an apology http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=865422&page=0&fpart=all&vc=1 "A few months back (issue 108), you might remember we did an oil comparison. At the time, we thought it was a bloody good thing, and we don't mind telling you we were pretty proud to publish an article that basically bagged a heap of big name brands. You see, at Street Commodores, we can't, and won't be bought. We like to play things straight. And in the name of playing things straight, we'd like to tell you what has happened since that story went to print. Basically, we made a few oil companies very cross, and some others quite happy; but we've also been educated some more on engine oils, and being the type of publication that we are, we wanted to fill you in on it. The information we've learned since then suggests the test we performed may be irrelevant. Some sources have advised us that the test we used would have been better served testing some of our favourite greases rather than the engine oils we commonly use on our street cars. Sure, we did the test with the best intentions, with a level playing field for each oil and no preconceptions as to who would perform better than another, but when, and if, we mess up, we like to think that we're man enough to set the record straight. So keep an eye out in an upcoming issue real soon for an in-depth look at what makes up the contents of your oil, what to look for when choosing one, why certain ingredients are so important and whether the test we used was irrelevant for testing oils."
This wear test has always seemed to me not to be representative of true real life conditions in an engine, especially at operating temperature. Now I have to admit to never using the Royal stuff but it certainly has introduced itself to my radar screen. I now look forward to the retest.
Non-standardized tests come up from time to time. They are all quite simple. If they were worth anything at all I am certain the SAE and API would use them to test oils and add to the specifications. It is just not the case. The tests used for certification are quite controlled and complicated. They are selected because they most closely resemble actual oils in engine use. They are performed to accelerate actual use. They come very close. I am not saying that this information that others provide is useless. I do look at it. If there were two oils that I was considering and they were otherwise exactly the same, then I might choose one based on these extraneous tests. aehaas
I have visited the Royal Purple site and it seems that they have verified with tests and testimonials the fact that they get increased torque and horsepower over dino oils, fact is many other synthetic oils perform as well in similar circumstances. With all the tecnology today with new oil formulations it would seem that it is not likely that an oil company would make a breakthrough and be superior to others, but it is possible so we should keep an open mind and just maybe find something that fits our oil protocol.
http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html Discussion about Zn and P levels being reduced in oils. Should answer questions about mobil 1...
Thanks for the link. I've got some reading to do but already I'm more depressed about my engine rebuild. I read the section on Bearing Wear Analysis. I think I've got almost every symptom.
http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html I read this. It is faulty to a degree. See: Research Paper Reviews at http://ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=new_faq_item#faq_haas_articles It has been shown that ZDDP levels of 0.03 is all that is needed. Levels above this are only a reserve and even in severe racing conditions the levels are used up very very slowly. Used oil analysis shows virtually no Zn use in normal cars. Some of the newer formulations are Zn free and show excellent wear results. Go to BobIsTheOilGuy. Zinc is but one additive and anybody making it sound like the only additive in oil either has no knowledge of oil or is misrepresenting the composition. That article from Inengineering says that an SG rated 20W-50 (from the 1980s) is the best because it has the most zinc. This is false. The SM oils of today that are 5W-20 actually have half the wear and in every test done by the API is superior compared to that oil. Oils are tested in dozens of criteria. A void in any category will result in engine failure in the long run. Each additive is needed in a particular amount. More is not better and may in fact be corrosive or interact adversely with some other additives. The SM oils of today are superior to all other oils of the past for general automotive use. These have been used successfully in millions of cars with no adverse effects. The criteria to pass the SM tests are more difficult than of the SL API rating, including engine wear. For those who are in racing conditions the SL oils with a little more zinc are probably better but your cats may wear faster. It is a trade off. aehaas
Royal Purple is a Speedy308 Team Sponsor, from Porter Texas..... We have snapped a cam shaft but I think it was a materials flaw, not oil related....
I found this site rather interesting, especially down at the bottom as to recommended oils (AGIP sint 2000) : http://www.offroaders.com/tech/snake-oil.htm Here is another I found interesting. While it does specifically deal with aviation, they are still piston engines and operate in much harsher environments. Notte also the authors: http://www.swaviator.com/html/issueja02/Hangar7802.html There still seem to be many claims made about synthetics that just arent very realistic IMHO. It seems rather interesting that most modern aircraft engine oils are still mostly dino, with some using blended synthetic. But as the site above points out, dont expect any great miracle from your oil. But the one that really makes me sigh are these claims that synthetic makes more horsepower. If your going to compare the HP produced back to back from an engine running 20W50 dino, to one using 0W20 synthetic, I might believe it. Otherwise, I call BS. Post some verified and documented evidence from a study that proves it. An piston engine airplane has a built in dynomometer in the form of a propellor connected directly to the engine. Every pilot from here to Timbucto is dynoing thier airplane all day long. On any given day, hundreds of piston engine aircraft are brought up to full power while either braked, tied or chalked to the ground, and tested. Changes in temperture, altitude, or humidity can effect the full RPM the engine can produce against the rotating wing of the propellor. I have never heard or read or can find any claims anywhere of synthetic oil producing higher RPM. And if you cant get more RPM, you sure as hell aint making any more power. If synthetic oil consistently raised full power RPM on an airplane engine by even 25 RPM, you could be sure as the dickens every throttle jockey from one end of the earth to the other would grab onto it. It dont, and they aint! I dont have any specific axe to grind on synthetic, I just find it hard to promote it by making hyped claims. Its good oil. It does some things a little better under some conditions, but overall its not any big deal. I can assure everyone here that I could take your brand new Ferrari and put 5W Pennzoil in it, and if its changed often enough and the car is serviced, the engine will make many thousands of trouble free miles. I actually had a 300E that was serviced every 7-9000 miles with 10W30 Pennzoil and it had 165,000 miles when I bought it with gummed up oil rings. A few oil changes and it cleaned up and ran another 40K miles until I sold it. You guys will get just as long of life running 20W50 Castrol Racing dino as you will with anything else, all things considered. The rest is all a lot of hype. Unless your running turbos or trying to start a unheated diesel at 0 degrees, dont expect any miracles.
This article seems very concerned with zinc and phosphorus content, but as we all know, there are many, many properties that overall are important to a motor oil...I would be curious AEHAAS as to how important Zn and P truly are in the overall picture?
Just out of curiosity, how high do oil temps get in aviation applications of piston engines. That is the one area that makes me a big supporter of syn oil. We routinely see oil temps well over 300 in Ferrari's.
