What's wrong with team orders?

my $0.02 is that you get rid of the rules that are not in the best interest of the sport. In this case, the rule is meaningless and its not inforceable... unless, of course, if Alonso ( the crusader for truth in F1 ) is on your team ;-).

 

Nothing.

 

It is a good point, however you might as well have just one driver one car per team.

Yes the other driver can be used for blocking and so forth but with qualifying no point! just like being a test driver

How can the #2 driver shine if is role is to play a back marker all the time.

Another point the FIA is trying to limit spending it costs alot keeping 2 cars on the track and the smaller teams have much less budget it would help them.

They will always be team orders towards the end of the season ,The rule is there to stop it looking like a farce for the fair weather watcher.
MS highlighted this factor. It is a grey area and I'am sure the FIA overlooks the rule if its not in your face ie: slowing down to let your team mate pass then putting in fastest laps etc..

 

The "long title" of that rule is "Don't have Rubens slow at the last second to let Schumi pass for the win".

Otherwise, it's just another meaningless mumble that can be arbitrarily enforced when FIA wants to fiddle with the results.

It's all about "the show". WWF1.

An alternate rule would be that teammates can't pass each other on the last lap.
Unless they're Alonso and Hamilton.
Or Prost and Senna.
Or .....

It's a stupid rule. Period.

 

Yep

 

The critics say it ruins the sport. Having one car pull over to the side of the track to let his team mate pass is bad for the excitement. Playing chess can be challenging but watching it is boring. If you are a fan of a number two driver, he will always be taking the bullet for the team and that would be sucky.
There are a lot of reasons why team orders are bad for the sport. At least with things the way they are now, it's not blatant, which gives enough cover to the teams, so no one is singled out.

 

they make the results artificial.

for example -

at the mid point of a season say we have 3 drivers ahead of the pack in the drivers championship
driver 1 drives for Team X
driver 2 also drives for Team X
driver 3 drives for Team Y

this means that in the 2nd half of the season driver 3's team mate could (if in a position to do so) basically give him "extra" points he wouldnt have otherwise gained.

with driver 1 and 2 being on the same team they dont have the same opportunity to gain "extra" points as both are fighting for the championship

 

IMO, nothing's wrong with team orders. it existed in the sport, and will continue to exist. it's was just a stupid, silly call by the Scuderia in Austria 2002. a call, that till today i don't agree.

 

oh man...... i remember that..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltbjrLorp84
at least Ferrari have improved their technique.........now they'll just have you pit to make the "fix" less obvious...

 

That's absolutely true. If the general public understood that F1 is a team sport the problem would go away. Well, having a WDC might be another problem, since maybe only around half the drivers are actually genuinely competing for it. That problem didn't exist in the days when the driver was just another employee and the manufacturer was everything.

 

Does anyone doubt that Ford or Porsche or Ferrari did not use "team orders" at the classic LeMans races of the late 60s, early 70s?

How many times did Porsche have 3 cars pull together on the final lap of endurance races to provide the perfect finish line photo-op? They were in stated order and did not jockey for a last minute pass.

Doesn't anybody recall the penultimate "team orders" teams of the past - I nominate Mercedes Benz & Neubauer as the prime example. In those days (like ***ioli in the 1935 French Grand Prix) those drivers who defied Neubauer's orders were dismissed as trouble makers and unsportsmanlike because of their refusal to support the overall good of the team.

I have personally never believed that anybody obeys this silly rule today anyway.

 

+1

 

2002 Austrian GP comes to mind.

 

+2

The only thing wrong with this was that it was shoved down everyone's throat at the finish line instead of being subtly done during the pit stops as is the usual m.o. Maybe you could also say it was unnecessary given Michael's points lead at the time. Team orders have always been there and will always be there in future. Might as well get used to it.

 

What was wrong about it aside from the too obvious way was the fact that it was so early in the season. Normally team orders don't come into play until halfway through the season or until one driver no longer has a mathematical chance. Plus it was poor ol' Rubens vs the mighthy Schumacher. I mean c'mon, give the man a chance.

But then again as others (GTE) pointed out: Maybe that win was never Rubens' in the first place. Maybe the team was just carrying the race home and Schumacher could have beaten Rubens on the track, but didn't to avoid risk.

Austria wasn't pretty and Brazil this year showed how it can be done a lot more elegantly without embarassing anybody.

 

I agree, (about the elegant pit stop timing) except for one little moral caveat: Because of the rule being "technically" in play, this is a sort of an infraction - just an effectively unenforceable infraction. How hypocritical is it to have the announcers speculating on how Ferrari was going to effect the lead change subtly enough to not get their hands slapped? Who can be fooled by it when this is going on? Even McLaren has apparantly not yet found a way to protest Ferrari for the lead swap.

I think that team rules ought to be limited to a "reasonable sportsmanship" standard...i.e. "team order to slow down, when all your cars are well in the lead". "team order to hold position, when your #1 driver is in the lead", even "team order to change position, when the drivers championship is in the balance".

Probably we can all agree that "team order to crash out another car so that your team/driver can claim more points" and other such is outside the pale - and should be rigidly enforced against by the marshalls.

 

Agreed on all points.

Did you guys listen carefully to the winners interviews after Brazil? The way how Massa carefully tiptoed around the team order issue. Same for Kimi. It was very clear they were briefed not to admit to anything like team orders, so the terms used was "helping the team".

 

Yes, and team orders could potentially devalue the WDC. There have been posts on here suggesting FM rather than KR might have been WDC this year if he'd been allowed to race a bit longer. Of course we'll never know. Some might feel cheated because their man wasn't allowed to fully compete and some Kimi fans might even feel he didn't win it fair and square (but probably not ).

 

With team orders you might not win it fair and square. But look at the alternative: Without team orders you certainly loose it fair and square. As nicely demonstrated this season by the McLaren team.

 

I agree. As I've said before I see F1 as a team sport and have no problems with team orders, but I can see the arguments against them.

 

What's the alternative?

Once the grid is set you can't pass a teammate on the track. So they pass in the pits. It's safer for the teams and drivers but not as exciting for the fans.

If you made such a silly rule of absolutely no passing during the race among teammates, then teams would try to play with qualifying. There's no end to it.

Teams in F1 is tradition. Having only one driver per team would diminish the sport. Would need twice as many teams to have a meaningful race. Where would they come from? How competitive would they be?

The current system gives the illusion that the fastest driver will win the race. The reality is the fastest team wins. As long as we have a WDC there will be team orders. Would it have been better to make Massa win in Brazil and have Lewis or Alonso be WDC? IMVHO abolutely not.

 

did anyone notice Massa making a small error just before the lead swap allowing Kimi to close right up? That man is goood!

 

The drivers should start out on a equal footing within the team which in the eyes of most should appear the case at the least.

The format works as it is until someone takes the p*ss

 

I did. To play it safe he picked a corner with enough run off concrete in case it gets a bit wrong.