Whats wrong with this picture?

I don't really see anything wrong with this picture. Who cares what country he is from and what their economic situation is. If Jordan feels he is the best fit for the team right now, then so be it.

 

Ayrton Senna, Rubens Barichello to name but a couple came from Brazil - equally as 3rd world as India. What's the difference difference between those drivers and Nathrain Karthikeyan?

 

How arrogant can you get?

If you're referring to the 'correct' classic definition of Thirld World, then why aren't you surprised about F1 Drivers coming from Brazil, Colombia, and South Africa?

If you're using the 'popular' definition of Thirld World (poor, striving, backward, impoverished countries) then you must be talking about a different India.

Does the US have loads and loads of talented drivers that don't just drive round and round on symmetrical oval circuits?

 

I think that a US driver is in the offing in the next 2-3 years - Scott Speed and one other guy (whose name I forget), have made a name for themselves in the Euro Formula Renault series.

To get noticed by F1 bosses you need do well in the Euro series. These two guys are going the right way to get into F1.

 

Perhaps then it's because it's just as lucrative for US drivers to compete in US racing series? Not just being paid to race, but all the other commercial opportunities that come with the exposure.

 

I guess no one has been paying close enough attention. Scott Speed just tested the Red Bull F1 car and will be running in the GP2 series this season and then on to F1. The only way for US drivers to make it in F1 is to pack up and move to Europe and compete in their series. The politics are very hard to get passed and it also takes a lot of money to buy a seat. In order to buy that seat you need a sponsor that has a global presence and not just a national presence in the US. Also just the way young drivers start in Europe is very different. You look at the young US talent and they all started in shifter karts and if you look in europe there isnt any real big shifter kart series. They are all TAG class or Direct Drive which are much more difficult to drive and be fast in cause you are forced to keep speed in the corners. Some of the real talent in the US wont even go to F1 cause its a career killer if you dont make it. AJ Allmendinger, who is by far the most up and coming road racer, turned down the Red Bull offer to stay in the US where he knew he had a fighting chance. I think F1 will go through a lot of changes and soon I think we will see more US drivers in F1. They just need a more direct path to F1 cause there are way too many feeder series and that is what GP2 will do.

 

You guys need to calm down. I think axemansean's point is not just that he comes from a third world country (depending on how one classifies a country) but from a country that does not actively support motorsport. India is not known for it's motorsport heritage and for all intense purposes India has about as much a motorsport program as the US has a well developed ping pong system.

Comparing Brazil and India makes no sense whatsoever unless you are looking at economic statisitics. In Brazil there are likely a few million kids who race karts, in India I would venture to guess that number is maybe 10,000 at most.

It all has to do with what is actively promoted in a country not really what the socioeconomic consition is. Why do some of the world's best soccer players come from impoverished countries? Because that is the only (or the primary game) played in those countries. It's relatively easy to play soccer in Columbia. All you need is four rocks (two on each side for goal posts) and something round. It doesn't need to be a top of the line Adidas soccer ball. People have been known to use cantelopes.

I think what axeman is asking is how come we (the US) can't get someone into F1 when we have a much more developed motorsport program in place and almost unlimited funding when India has nothing in terms of a motorsport program.

Part of the reason is a pure numbers game. How many karters are there in the US vs. Brazil. I read in racer magazine that the ratio is something like 15:1 in favor of Brazil. After soccer, motorsport is very big in Brazil. In the US it's peas. How many kids at your high school were involved in racing? Most likely none.

There are a whole host of reasons people end in F1. The top three are talent, money, and connections. Karthikeyan may be a great driver and may indeed deserve to be in F1, but that's not why he is at Jordan. Midland's director was Karthikeyan's motorsport boss in F3 and Karthikeyan has substantial backing from an India company. He may still have ended up in F1 at some point (though I beg to differ) but had Midland's not bought out Jordan he wouldn't be there TODAY ! That fact can't be argued.

It's all a numbers game. The more kids you have to choose from in any given discipline (soccer, karting.....) the more chances you get to pick a Senna or Schumacher. Who knows there may be a Jamaican who has the natural gifts of Senna or Schumcher, but he will never get to F1 because he will never even sit in a kart or race car.

Regards,

Jon P. Kofod (who would have been in F1 save for the money, connections and talent)
www.flatoutracing.net

 

Yes and no: Take tiny Switzerland for example. Motor racing is banned there by law (only time trials allowed). The country has the population of Chicago, a huge environmentalist following, no car industry of its own, yet it continues to produce F1 drivers. Siffert and Rega were the last great ones, lesser talents followed (Surer, Foitek and some more), but it still produces them.

OTOH you have a gigantic country and economy like the States with motor racing in abundance, but no F1 driver. It is totally bizarre.

Allmendinger was a hopeful and now I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Speed.

As far as the Red Bull driver search goes: I never understood what happened there. As you guys said, it was all over the TV and the newspapers, heck I saw pictures of the candidates, then all of sudden silence. Not sure whether Mateschitz or Eddie Underacheever were to blame, but that can of Red Bull left a foul taste in my mouth...

 

The Red Bull program is still in place. They recently took on John Edwards, the very gifted 13 year old from the US and have put him in some of the top Euro karting series. The Red Bull porgram got off to a bad start because the drivers they originally picked didnt show very good results in the series they were placed in. The reason Scott Speed is still in Europe is because of an accident. He was a mid pack runner for half the series and then he got extremely sick. They didnt think it was fair to send him packing so they gave him another season. Then out of no where he just dominated. Scott is extremely fast and he has what it takes. If Red Bull will cut a good clean path for him and take care of all the politics and of course the $$$$ then Scott will deliver.

Another thing to think about it right now the US Dollar is really weak so its hard to bring US money over there to get a seat in anything, even the lower formulas. That is why a lot of Euro drivers are looking at our series like toyota atlantic and pro mazda and champ car.

 

Speedy Sam, the other driver you are thinking of is Colin Flemming. He was actually my instructor right before he left for Europe.

 

I've been pondering this question for quite some time now.

Look at Australia as another example. We have quite a few Formula drivers in Europe now who have tested Formula One, Ryan Bricoe who tested full-time for Toyota F1 for several years before moving to Indy recently, Michael Schumacher's Race Engineer Chris Dyer is Australian, Paul Stoddart is Australian, Williams' Technical Director Sam Michael is Australian, and then of course you have Mark Webber.

So at first glance, it appears that Australians have quite a presence in Formula One and open-wheel racing in Europe in general, despite only having a population of 20 million, and nothing close to the level of money the US population has to invest in motorsport.

So why is this?

I think the answer lies in the way in which the US is very self-satisfied, and subsequently insular. The majority of motorsport enthusiests there think tin tops and Indy cars racing in circles is the pinnicle of motorsport (and of course in the US it's advertised as such), and don't question this belief by looking across the Atlantic at other racing series. I've heard many times from Americans on this website how a large number of their fellow citizens (even motorsport enthusiests) know very little about Formula One, and even less about lower Formulae overseas.

Another factor I believe has to do with the fundemental way in which alot of Americans take part in motorsport; even the kids with aspirations of getting into open-wheel motorsport overseas. I'm amazed by the footage I've seen of some karters in the US who rock up with absolutely massive trailers pulled by shiny new SUVs, buy the best of everything to gain some perceived 'advantage' and, as mentioned earlier, go straight to shifters because they think non-shifter karts aren't cool enough, plus the fact that they can easily afford it anyway - even though they couldn't drive to save their lives. They then move up to a lower open-wheel Formula in the US, where the situation is much the same as I've described above. When the time finally comes and they move to Europe, they get a big shock when the South American and European competition leaves them in the dust. So they either quit or head back to the US and compete there.

Compare that with many of the karters in Europe, and especially South America, who have to make do with less expensive equipment, and fiercer competition. What happens as a result? You see much more driver development.

This is how I see it anyway; your views may differ.

 

We had one of those! When Schumacher gave him the baton he bloody dropped it on the way to the world title!

 

Good point. However the motorsport options around Switzerland (France, Italy, Austria, Germany ...) are far greater than India has. You could cross the border into Pakistand but you'd likely get shot long before you found any race track or series there.

I also think that TV coverage of motorsports is likely far greater in Switzerland than India so kids in Switzerland grow up watching the 24 Hour of Lemans and F1 races. The chance that the majority of people outside the large Indian cities having a TV, let alone access to F1 coverage is slim to none.

And in actuality there haven't been many current racers from Switzerland that have made it big other than Alain Menu (I am sure I have forgotten one or two current racers).

Openwheelracer makes a huge point about US sponsorship dollars and their relatively unknown exposure in Europe. New Century Mortgage is going to get little benefit putting their name on an F3 car on a continent they don't (and can't legally) do business on. This is what seperates the South Americans from the US kids. South American companies are willing to promote their drivers in the lower formula in Europe in hopes they make it to F1 where they can get exposure. And the plain truth is that many South Americans come from very well off families.

I went to Skip Barber School and competed in the Formula Dodge Series with a guy now in F3000 (Ernsto Viso). He showed up at Skip Barber with his own press people and Tv crew to film him. I was told his father his a wealthy Venzuelan businessman. Senna came from a well of family as did some other notable F1 racers (Reuterman).

As far as the Red Bull program in its early stages there was a lot of talk going around that the selection process was somewhat biased towards Skip Barber kids though I don't think that is the case any more.

Regards,

Jon

 

I had the same experience. When I raced in the Barber Dodge series we had a couple kids show up with TV crews and had TONS of logos on thier cars from Gigante and TelMex.

Another thing that pisses me off is how people have made comments that Red Bull favored Skip Barber drivers. They are ALL Skip Barber drivers cause the people at Skip actually developed a ladder series to ChampCar and IRL. The Russell series and FranAm didnt do anything for your career in terms up taking you to the next level.

 

Don't get me started on this please (check my avatar). It was bloody Todt who dropped the baton. One additional wheel at the pitstop on Nuerburgring would have done the trick. Look up the statistics: Irvine has come closer in points than anybody else in a Ferrari not to win the title and that includes people such as Prost, Villeneuve and Mansell. Just give the man four wheels and he'll do it.

Anyway, blood pressure going down, back to topic:

Jon, as much as I agree with your points, don't forget that a Swiss F1 wannabee has a really difficult start as he will always have a hard time finding sponsors. Probably much harder than somebody from the US. The rest of your points I agree with.

Admiral Thrawn (btw I never quite understood that name): I think you're spot on about the US being a closed society. That also explains why this country is uncapable of producing a decent male soccer team (the women won the title btw). It just isn't in the mind of people, they're too busy playing football, baseball and basketball. If by some weird law oval racing and NASCAR would be banned tomorrow, I bet in due time this country would turn up some decent F1 drivers.

 

yeah but I assume you are talking about the Barber Dodge Series. Ernesto showed up with his own camera man and PR person to the dinky "3 day" school and a few lapping days (and of course the regional formula dodge series as well). There was also a Japanese kid with his own PR person and an interpreter (he spoke no English).

As far as the perception about Skippy favoritism, I am sure it's because Skip Barber himself was on the selection commitie, but as you pointed out none of the other schools wanted to step up and commit.

Andreas, question for you (I don't know the answer). Can I Swiss based company promote it's products or services outside Switzerland in the form of motorsports sponsorship. Say for example Novartis sponsoring a Swiss driver in F1? If so I would argue (not to beat a dead horse) that a Swiss driver would find it much easier to get sponsorship in Europe where his country is based vs. a US firm. Keep in mind that at the level of F3 or other Formula feeder series, most sponsors for US racers is form small companies with little international exposure.

I remember talking with Paul Edwards (one of the original 4 Red Bull drivers) at a Speedvision race about his sponsorship for overseas and he said forget about it, no one is interested.

Regards,

Jon

 

Believe it or not motorsports in India is becoming very popular, especially F1. I was reading that Formula 1 is the second most watched sport in India, next to cricket. Now that Narian is racing in F1, I am sure it will the most watch sport. The problem with the U.S. is you have some many other sports. Whereas the rest of the world has the world cup, rugby and now F1. Till this day you ask an American about F1 or Micheal Schumacher, they will have no idea who he is and what F1 is. They think racing is Nascar. As for sponsors, the U.S. has the most. Again the problem is we have other sports such as football, basketball, baseball and Nascar. If a sponsor wants to get involved in racing, they will go to Nascar. They are not going sponsor a series like F1 which has no recognition in the U.S. As we all know, F1 has been in the states for 5 years and is having a hard time selling enough tickets. The attendance has been dimisihing since 2000 and most of the viewers were from Canada. Its pretty pathetic when you ask an american about racing, they will think Nascar. As for the Redbull program, I had spoke to Scott Speed's dad about his chances in F1. He said they were going to put him in F1 this year, but Scott's dad felt he was not ready. There is a possibility, that we may see him towards the end of season, taking over Christan Klein.

 

While i look forward to seeing an Indian driver on the circuit, i sure hope he does better than Alex Yoong from Malaysia a couple years ago.....Alex was okay in other races, but really was not ready for F1. I believe was put in car due to sponship from a key backer in Malaysia. (However, if you need some of that to keep the sport going....i guess i can live with it....)