When will GM 'Get It'? | Page 3 | FerrariChat

When will GM 'Get It'?

Discussion in 'American Muscle' started by PeterS, Nov 12, 2005.

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  1. Evolved

    Evolved F1 Veteran

    Nov 5, 2003
    8,700

    Lost another loan to ditech!
     
  2. Chevarri

    Chevarri Formula Junior

    Jan 20, 2003
    764
    In a rose bush.
    Full Name:
    J'aime
    I fancied the idea of having a Solstice as a daily come spring/summer next year.



    GM had a car that good long ago in the 60's called the Impala, it was held in high regard, everyone wanted one and it was Chevy's bread and butter, not only that it was also an outsourced design as well from Fisher.

    I was watching a program on PBS about this issue with Delphi, the avg empolyee I think made 40-60 dollars an hour! All the while I'm here aiming for a BS and HS educated ppl putting parts together are making almost 100k a year.
     
  3. XR4Tim

    XR4Tim Formula 3

    Jun 1, 2005
    1,503
    Medina, OH
    I remember when Pinninfarina designed a car for GM. The Alantè was kind-of a flop. Great car, but overpriced at the time.
     
  4. lionsfan54

    lionsfan54 Karting

    Nov 7, 2003
    113
    Bench racing... call it what you want. But by every performance measure the Z06 beats all of those cars. Often for less money. It even beats them all on the 'ring. That's hardly "bench racing" but rather a real time on a real road.

    You want to trash interior fit and finish? The Sti and Evo make the C6 look like a Bentley!
     
  5. Hans Gruber

    Hans Gruber Karting

    Nov 16, 2004
    84
    Are you joking?????
     
  6. Hans Gruber

    Hans Gruber Karting

    Nov 16, 2004
    84
    The UAW is killing GM like a festering tumor. $1500 of every car GM sells goes to legacy costs (health care benefits, pension etc.).

    GM spent $4.5 billion on health car alone in 2002 with a total obligation on $60 billion!!!! They could buy Toyota with that!

    For their yearly health care expenses, GM cound fund 4-5 new platforms every year!!

    http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0403/11/a01-88813.htm

    http://www.economist.com/agenda/displaystory.cfm?story_id=5051769

    Foreign manufacturers such as Toyota, Honda, BMW simply don’t have to contend with this because their governments cover these costs.

    GM needs to re-evaluate their contract with the UAW; for example with the current sweetheart deal that the UAW coaxed in 1996, it is impossible for GM to actually lay off an employee. Instead they have to pay an idle employee approximately 90% of what they would earn of the job. GM currently has approximately 50 000 of these sitting on their asses doing nothing and getting paid.

    Many of you are bashing GM for things that are simply out of their hands.
     
  7. bdog

    bdog Formula Junior

    Jul 10, 2004
    330
    that way so much of GM production is in Canada these days some are DC and Ford they pay more tax true but still save money because of the Sociazied Medicare
     
  8. reospeedwagon

    reospeedwagon Rookie

    Aug 17, 2005
    38
    Sacramento
    Full Name:
    Chris
    Didnt they recently sell a good size of that recently also. Probably not a good idea to sell off the money maker. My 2 cents on the subject, the bottom line is they dont make desirable cars. whether thats from crappy bulid quality, bad design, outdated engineering, all of that doesnt really matter. Peole just dont like the cars they are making period. Also, one car does not a company make. You cant say "what about the Corvette?" It isnt the money maker, they need good high volume cars. It might make people more excited about the company, but it isnt going to help the margin a whole lot.
     
  9. CMY

    CMY F1 World Champ

    Oct 15, 2004
    10,142
    Redondo Beach, CA
    Full Name:
    Chris
    What is stopping GM from bringing this idea on-board?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Steyr

    Jump over the UAW and increase quality.. I'm not going to argue the 'vette anymore as it reminds me too much of Ford's s/c'd '04 Cobra that was built on a '79 Fairmont chassis. ;)

    There must be a lot of fine print in those union contracts to keep this sh*t sideways for so many years.. obviously the UAW still believes GM is a major player and so does GM.
     
  10. Hans Gruber

    Hans Gruber Karting

    Nov 16, 2004
    84
    Magna already is a GM supplier and I would hardly consider Magna a quality supplier.

    So you think the Corvette is built on a dated chassis?

    The UAW idiots still think they're living in 1970 and GM has 45% market share.

    They are so utterly oblivious to GM's current financial woes it's just insane. I don't know what it is, either they don't want to see the truth, or they think it's all a big lie on the part of GM. I personally know two GM assembly line workers and both of them think this is all some grand financial conspiracy on the part of GM and they have ten's of billions tucked away in some secret accounts. Apparantly they read this in some UAW publications.

    I can't wait for the day when the house of cards comes crashing around them. Funny thing is that the UAW is not even serving the interests of it's own employees.
     
  11. Evolved

    Evolved F1 Veteran

    Nov 5, 2003
    8,700
    GM's mangement killed GM. The buck stops at the corporate office. They could have shut the company down in 1996 if they projections would not allow them to cover costs 10 years hence.


    The UAW and other leaches are just along for the ride until the meerry go round stops.

    What do they need to do'?

    Hire Lou Gerstner or someone similar to clean house.
    If IBM could change with the times, GM can too.
     
  12. Hans Gruber

    Hans Gruber Karting

    Nov 16, 2004
    84
    I see that thown around a lot but all of the hard facts show otherwise. The Impala for example has proven to be more relaible than both the Camry or Accord for several years now.

    The problem is the perception of cars built 20 years ago.

    yeah....it especially does not matter if one has no clue as to what they're talking about.
     
  13. Hans Gruber

    Hans Gruber Karting

    Nov 16, 2004
    84
    The UAW shut down several key plants which brought all of GM's North American operations to a halt. That compounded with the fact that the UAW had public opinion on their side. Remember their slogan "too old to work, too young to die."

    IBM did not have to contend with the myopic and oblivious UAW.
     
  14. lionsfan54

    lionsfan54 Karting

    Nov 7, 2003
    113
    If your livelyhood is based on the US economy you'd better hope that day never comes. When/if GM crashes hard the effects will be felt from coast to coast.
     
  15. writerguy

    writerguy F1 Veteran

    Sep 30, 2003
    6,786
    NewRotic
    Full Name:
    Otto
    In this case you actually have to think GLOBALLY

    the general and all of its afiliates, suppliers, vendors and support networks are truely a global operation.

    When the UAW deal was signed it was right after the Roger Smith days and his heir Bob Stemple is the guy who sigined the deal. Really he is to blame and the outside board did just that when they Sacked him shortly after.

    Roger spent billions on technology, Hughes Aerospace and Saturn and was the single biggest factor in creating an advisarial enviroment with the UAW, His legacy included the incompatant actions of Stemple.

    When the deal was announced the UAW was giddy because Bob had hit them with the deal that was sweeter and deeper than they had dreamed to get them to "pick up and work" It just transferred that burden onto this generation of managers. The current CEO (Waggoner) was an unknown outsider to most of Detroit, Cowger was running parts of GM Europe after having a good run in Mexico and South America and Lutz is the only guy to be able to go potty in all of the executive washrooms in Motown They have been doing a pretty good job of dealing with that legacy left behind by the Incompetent SMITH and STEMPLE.

    Their cars are really getting good but I have my own Biases because of how BAD they were when I was younger. There was no North American product I wanted when i was in my late teens and twentys... I mean really who wanted a Citation, Horizon or a Tempo? They were crap but the current product from all the big three (with the excepion of the units at ford's attempts to be so middle of the road they are going to be hit by a big toyota truck) are getting or have gotten to be some of the best in the market.
     
  16. FarmerDave

    FarmerDave F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Jul 26, 2004
    15,774
    Full Name:
    IgnoranteWest
    Jim,

    The Hummer H2 with Michigan MFGR plates, with suitcases full of money, showed up at my house by mistake.

    I gave them your correct address.
     
  17. writerguy

    writerguy F1 Veteran

    Sep 30, 2003
    6,786
    NewRotic
    Full Name:
    Otto
    #67 writerguy, Nov 15, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017

    OH I hate it when they can't take simple instructions like LEAVE IT IN THE HOLLOWED out pumpkin at the end of the driveway... idiots
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  18. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jan 26, 2005
    22,352
    Indian Wells, California
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    Jon
    It looks great. In fact, it makes the rest of the GM line look bland. I look forward to driving one.

    The question is whether GM can make money on it, given its cost structure. Unfortunately, as was posted earlier, Miata-class two seaters don't generate the sales numbers to matter much to GM.

    True, sort of, except the demand for cars has to be filled somewhere, and if GM went away I'd think Honda, Toyota and Nissan would be hiring and building capacity here pretty fast. The big effect would be on UAW-inflated autoworker wages, and the standard of living for a big part of our working class - and national healthcare: with all of those workers without coverage, this issue would go from bad to crisis very fast.

    Economists would argue that the US economy would be better in the long term if more efficient automakers replaced GM in the corporate landscape.

    Not as optimistic about the current products, but your point about "memories of crap" are spot on. GM/Ford/Chrysler pumped out junk for the decades when I was growing up. It predisposes me to dislike their cars. GM could be making a better impression on the current generation of college grads.

    However, as a consultant I drive many rental cars, almost all GM and Ford, and - comparing 2005 domestic cars to 2005 Asian and European cars - I can tell you that a Maxima or Accord feels quite upscale compared to the Malibu Maxxx or Grand Prix. VW outclasses GM, although its reputation for quality is spotty. None of these are dream cars, but if I needed an economical 4-door sedan I don't know that I could go for a "domestic" car.
     
  19. lionsfan54

    lionsfan54 Karting

    Nov 7, 2003
    113
    When those underfunded pension liabilities come due it will make the tax payer (that's you and me) bailout make the S&L crisis look like a bargain.

    I'd also venture that replacing GM with foreign owned manufacturers is not a good long term solution for the US way of life. Not to go marxist on you, just hoping that GM can recover from this mess.
     
  20. Evolved

    Evolved F1 Veteran

    Nov 5, 2003
    8,700

    Big Blue had a culture similar to GM's. Hell, they might have had an easier time if they had fatcat union officials to dictate to the rank and file how the changes were going to go down.

    GM, the company, can change. Not that they WILL but they can.
     
  21. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

    Oct 13, 2003
    3,637
    Los Altos Hills, CA
    Full Name:
    Gary B.
    Yeah, what the heck, why have to make good on promises to employees who in some cases worked for GM their entire adult life? Screw 'em, it's their fault anyway. And screw the stock and bondholders also.

    Gary
     
  22. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jan 26, 2005
    22,352
    Indian Wells, California
    Full Name:
    Jon
    In the short term, yes, I think you're right that those liabilities will be hard - though I wonder if the government is going to pick up the whole tab. And GM should have to ante up. The problem is that GM has made stupid compensation/benefit decisions while taking a commodity approach to building products for an extremely competitive and trend-driven market. Without hot products, they can't afford to keep their myopic promises.

    In the long term, manufacturing wages are going to drop in the US. It's not even a matter of politics, pro-union or pro-business - with India and China rising, competition is going to get a lot worse for GM and Ford. As others have said here, the UAW is killing American manufacturing, although the automakers are complicit in offering stupidly generous pensions and benefits. While companies like Porsche (and Ferrari... forgot this was fchat for a minute) make products that command huge premiums for prestige, GM is peddling rebates instead of cars.

    GM needs the automotive equivalent of the iPod, and you don't get that by recombining parts. There was a review of the HHR today in the New York Times, and predictably this new product was damned by faint praise -- a "PT Cruiser competitor 6 years late" with a lacklustre 4-banger, Cobalt underpinnings, and plain jane wheels and interior. This is the sequel to the "slow-selling SSR" pickup-hotrod truck, and this is going sit alongside the Corvette (!!!) in Chevy showrooms.

    So, yes, it would be great if GM could drop a few brands and make some great, distinctive cars. Americans CAN do this - Jeeps and Hummers own their niches and don't have any real foreign competition - Land Rover hasn't made a big dent in the real rock-bashing market here due to price. But I've been waiting since the Chevy Citation era and I don't see a turnaround underway. I know Cadillac is supposed to be back, but monied/educated people in California don't seem to be buying them -- they're all in Lexuses and BMWs at that price level. I admit that outside of California GM may be doing better, and my perspective is probably skewed a bit.

    I don't see GM recovering from this mess without some serious structural changes. IMO, GM still doesn't 'get it'.
     
  23. Mr Payne

    Mr Payne F1 Rookie

    Jan 8, 2004
    2,878
    Bakersfield, CA
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    Payne
    First of all, if anyone has read *any* real piece of writing from a high level exec that wasn't simply a PR blurb makes me think that GM *does* get it. They interior design, exterior design, panel gaps, quality of materials are the areas where people make snap judgements about how "good" a car is.

    Lutz in particular seems very adept in stating these problems. Little seems to be done though. The latest truck interior designs seem to be a *marked* step up for GM though. Looks like they got rid of Rubbermaid as a supplier.
     
  24. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    May 27, 2004
    18,628
    FL
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    Sean
    Firstly they need to design and build DESIRABLE cars. Chrysler did it with the 300. The3 vette is great for what it is, but buyers today want sophistication and refinement. Honda and BMW sell because they have refinement in nearly evrything the consumer touches and feels. Reliability is only one measure, durability is another. Most Japanese and eurpopean cars will still be tight and drive decently as the mileage piles on. Domestics ,may run at 200k but after the first 30k they feel seriously used.

    Uninspiring exhaust.
    Vibraty engines, ie pushrods.
    cheap plastics, switches, ok brakes.
    4 speed autos
    Overboosted lifeless steering

    To name a few of the undesirable traits foisted on us by domestics.
    Had a buick lacross rental, my father a camry. The camry interior was cheap and uncomfortable by comparison. But the toyotas was a pleasure to drive and comfortable as a rewsult, the buick was alwyas work wit a strange suspension.

    A vette may be great, but its also a pain and will start rattling and creaking. The interior just brings up memories of bad GM experiences, and when I see the interior componants I wonder what other gm horrors layin wait for the poarts I can see. An M3 may be slower, but on the road its still fast and always a pleasure.

    Cadillac is ok, but it should be on par with a lexus and its far from that. Then there is the crappy dealer experience.

    GM needs inspired design and to get rid of the desire to cut corner somewhre always. The besxt example is comparing a solstice to a mx5. The pontiac is heavy unrefined and has a cheap crappy interior.

    I dont want the cheapest, I will pay a few grand more just make it properly, and that applies to any GM cat. Remember the first lexus it cost 50k while caddy thought it was being smart by selling guswsied up impala taxicabs as fleetwoods for 30k. Its not abvout volume but profit.

    Then look how GM has destroyed saab. Lets not forget the toothpaste brandind epert/idiot who thought that supermaket commodity rules applied to cars, and the gm board actualy though this was a good idea.

    Basicaly cars are about practicality and passion. GM half gets one and has no clue about the other.

    As for the uaw, well toyaota in japan and mercedes bmw have higher houherly wage costs. Yes the worlers are spoiult and of quetionable ability, but withou the right product there is no saving them either.

    If anybody wants to see how it should be done, go vidsit the bmw plant in spartanbug sc.
     
  25. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jan 26, 2005
    22,352
    Indian Wells, California
    Full Name:
    Jon
    Lol. :)
     

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