When will we see an entry level full CF Ferrari ?

Building on the 430 stopgap model thread. When do you think F will release a car for around $200k with a cf tub & body like the F50 or the Enzo ?

 

Interesting thought. I guess it would depend on the ability to crank out several thousand CF tubs and panels per year. Durability under daily driving conditions would be questionable. Repair cost would be quite shocking with a CF tub.

Price-wise, doubtful at $200k since the F430 is already at that price point with less exotic aluminum construction.

 

Ditto

 

Never, under the Ferrari marque.

 

Can't be done with a $200K car considering current technology and raw material prices.

 

There will need to be changes in the manufacturing technology.

Hand laid carbon fiber will always be very expensive, just because of the labor involved.

If carbon fiber construction advances and it's no longer necessary to assemble the car by hand like a giant 3-d puzzle, then you'll likely see the costs come down. Somebody will need to invent a new cf molding process. With the limitations of the current manufacturing process, a full cf car will never be entry level.

 

I'm starting to get wary of this cabon fiber tub stuff now that we're finding out that the carbon-fiber tub cars like the F50 need a complete replacement of the tubs in 10+ years.

Sounds cool and all, but replace the most expensive piece of the car in 10+ years...

I dunno.

 

Don't believe everything you read. I doubt that a single F50 has had a CF tub replaced at all due to degradation upon simply reaching ten years of age. There is a suggestion in the service manual that the CF is inspected for delamination and adhesive integrity at ten years. The same way the the gas bladders need to be inspected at ten years, as well as airbags and emission control systems etc etc.

CF will degrade under specific conditions like being exposed to constant sunlight over a long period or high operating heat conditions, constantly for ten years, but most exotic CF based cars like the F50, Enzo, CGT and even the CF roof of M series BMW's will hardly be abused in such a mannner, so the likelihood of complete CF failure is extremely slight, I would imagine. I'm not concerned at all and I'll keep driving my CF cars without worrying that the tubs will fail.

 

Inspection is the key. The first composite car tub ever built is still going strong as interestingly enough are her fuel tanks. Her fuel pumps are also fine. When I sent them back after 30 years for a service Boeing responded:

"This airplane hasn't flown very far."

I asked when the pumps would need a rebuild and they responded:

"At this rate in a few hundred years..."
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I think the title said it better....the key word is "entry level" not $200K.

 

I think this also depends on when the next new material will surface... When something comes along to replace carbon fiber you may begin to see lower grade applications, especially if the manufacturing process improves like some are already saying. Or what if this new material is so much more efficient and easier to manufacture? Carbon may be eliminated altogether...

All said I don't know if I'd want to see an entry level Ferrari fully carbonized...kind of like the exclusivity.

 

He didn't say "Can this be done NOW? Why not??" He said "When." Key word in this thread.

When will carbon fiber construction become more automated?
When will carbon fiber be durable enough to be used daily (if not now)?
When will carbon fiber be cheap and attainable!?

Unfortunately, I don't have the answer to any of these questions.

 

ATR, who makes most of the composite panels and tubs for Ferrari, Carrera GT, etc, is already working on universal application modular CF tubs that can be molded in sections and assembled in relatively large numbers. I read a decent article on it in one of the composites trade magazines a year or so ago. I'm sure there's more info on the ATR website.

 

As for the original question, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see this at the next model replacement, or the one thereafter - if not Ferrari, cartainly Lambo, Aston, or Bugatti.

 

Honda did it for less than half that, 15years sooner.

 

Any idea how BMW is dealing with UV degradation in the exposed CF roofs?

 

That's a good question. Unusual for an OEM to do that.
No matter how good the resins and coatings are, I can't imagine it would be as durable as the rest of the car. In 5-10 years, they may be discolored or faded.

 

Easy - through the use of UV filters. Some epoxies now have these filters in them, and are advertised as being UV stable. We use UV filtering clear-coat (urethane). Everything fades eventually, but good clear-coats will make paint or epoxy or whatever last a long, long time.

Also, some resins like vinylester are inherently UV stable. Of course, we are only talking about exposed-weave carbon fiber. It's a moot point on chassis members or painted body panels.

A lot of cheap import "carbon fiber" parts are not sufficiently shielded from UV degradation - it adds a lot of labor and associated cost. Therefore people see these faded ricer hoods and think all carbon fiber gets that way. A lot does, but certainly not all.

I think the BMW roofs will be OK based on what I know about them. I do know that a lot of several year old OEM Porsche, BMW, and Aston Martin (and Ducati motorcycle) exposed-weave carbon fiber trim pieces are completely shot. Probably the wrong clear coat, or lack of clear-coat entirely.

Back on Ferraris, most of the F40 exposed weave trim I have seen is really badly degraded, and I would not be too confident in exposed F50 parts, either, but mainly these are cosmetic issues. I think Enzos should be good for a while, and late model interior trim seems to be well protected. Something is up with CS engine bay pieces, though.

On a last note, 355 Fiorano carbon fiber trim does not appear to be properly clear-coated, and will probably not last forever. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.

 

Maybe if the car sat out in the sun all the time, but paint fades too if the car sits out.

 

Yes, but the CF roof is a structural element (paint is normally not) and CF "fade" means the composite is de-composing.

 

What is that?

 

A CF tub is going to reduce a bit of weight, but the more important weight to reduce is rotational mass.

Ferrari needs to catch up to Cadillac and Koenigsegg and Callaway by at least having a carbon fiber wheel *option* for their flagship, most costly models.

Light-weight 2 piece alloy rotors would help further, too.

These are products that are already being provided by the aftermarket, so there's no technical or price hurdle for Ferrari to overcome to offer such go-fast parts.

That would be a baby-step toward your carbon fiber tub. Do the wheels first.


Here's Rutan's GM Ultralight 4-seater (420 pounds): http://www.scaled.com/projects/gmcar.html

 

Why do you shill for CF wheels?

Even F1 deems them too risky.

 

F1 is a world apart from street driving. Street cars go faster and use less gas with CF wheels.

CF wheels vs alloy wheels today are like disc brakes vs drum brakes back in 1958...they are the wave of the future.

You can be behind the curve, or ahead of it. Your choice.

 

So it's a global warming thing?

...Sounds like solid "gold" hype to me.

They're only incrementally lighter than cast aluminum, and much more fragile, what's the quantum leap?