Where are all the Pebble Beach Photographs?!?

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by 134282, Aug 21, 2017.

  1. ferrarip4

    ferrarip4 Formula 3
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    #51 ferrarip4, Aug 29, 2017
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    I don't believe they were always at Scaglietti based on how wrong some repairs are... 3467GT's little fender-bender at the 1963 Tourist Trophy ;-)
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  2. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO Formula 3
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    Each car is different. So, another question : should the Breadvan be rebodied ?
     
  3. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    Better leave it alone if you cannot make it 100% correct. We've seen dozens of closed healight conversions that look like crap, would have been much better to leave the cars as they were.

    With GTOs it disturbs me that most noses - especially the early ones - were individual, sometimes even quite crude in detail but now as cars are restored, components are being grouped nicely to match the taste we have now, in 2017. For me it really changes the appearances of these cars, and some real cars really look like fakes these days!
     
  4. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Rookie
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    No, non, nein, niet and I am visiting Sicily this week so anyone saying yes be warned I could aim to find locals who take "contracts" on people:)
     
  5. ferrarip4

    ferrarip4 Formula 3
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    #55 ferrarip4, Aug 29, 2017
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    Like all cars some GTO's such as Ralph Lauren were stripped to bare metal then entirely redone, basically killing the patina and history of the car. Some had had modifications after their racing life, others have been kept almost as they were when they retired from competition. I suppose only their owners have the final word on what to do with their cars irrespective of anyone's opinion... Also, the question is How far back the car should be restored? To when it left the factory, or to an important time of its life (Le Mans race spec for example)?? Pebble Best in Show has always been a scam IMO. Seeing what cars they have named best in show over the years always puzzled me. Either they were overestored and-or they almost all came from the 1930's...

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  6. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO Formula 3
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    #56 GIOTTO, Aug 29, 2017
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    Leave the Breadvan as it is. If not...
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  8. ferrarip4

    ferrarip4 Formula 3
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    Lol, should the GTO's converted to 64 bodies be put back to 62?

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  9. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO Formula 3
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    I'm surprised that no one has done it yet. That would be the end.
     
  10. TTR

    TTR Formula 3
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    #59 TTR, Aug 29, 2017
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    Gentlemen, perhaps I'm mistaken, but I don't think Mr. Singhof is questioning Mr. TESTEs ability to see the difference between original forms and restored results or whether he owns any Ferrari being the issue here.

    I think it's more of the belittling and demeaning attitude toward restoration efforts of others Mr. TESTE often exhibits with his posts and some of us here view such public expression being in somewhat bad taste and disrespectful, perhaps even as much or more than he considers the color choices of cars in Mr. W's collection being in.

    I also think Mr. Singhofs questioning Mr. TESTEs personal experience having commissioned or performed comprehensive restorations of Ferraris or other one-off vintage cars of this caliber is quite valid.
    I too at times encounter in person or see posted opinions by individuals venomously criticizing cars or restoration efforts of others (certain case of 08xx come to mind, for example) and I just end up wondering how much first hand experience these individuals actually have to be on their high horses (no pun intended).
    Heck, some my posts can probably be seen coming from a "high horse", but I try to make sure most are based on personal experiences I can provide a proof of if need be.

    And if I'm not again completely mistaken, Concours events like PB are not really just originality contests, but more like a combination of it, beauty and elegance, etc., most of which are in the eyes of beholders, be they judges, participants or spectators.

    Bottom line is that if one wants certain car(s) to be restored to their liking, all one has to do is buy the said car(s) and commission or perform all necessary corrections. Simple.

    P.S. As long as opinions in regards to "bread van" are thrown around here: If it was something I could afford and only SWB available, I wouldn't hesitate to bring it back to its "as born" and much prettier configuration, even if I couldn't make its coach work exactly 100% correct to please others. Yes, I would save the less appealing body, etc and hand it over to next owner to put it back if they so chose.
     
  11. ferrarip4

    ferrarip4 Formula 3
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    Well Breadvan is the one and only so I'd leave it as is ;-). The Passo Corto is pretty, but arguably not the prettiest of the 250's, I do like my spyders in SWB please!

    About cars and restoration, it's a tricky business as per all the previous comments, and being a Fcar owner does not always means the person has impeccable taste. However since they are the owners, they can do whatever they want with their car...

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  12. malcolmjl

    malcolmjl Karting

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    It seems some people here prefer following the letter of the law at the cost of the spirit of the law. These cars were all hand made, coated in temporary paint jobs which changed several times in period and often had body modifications from one race to the next, sometimes even mid-race. They are living works of art which don't have a set formula or shape, just a general one. Yes the nose might be slightly different from the earliest known photograph, yes fog lights might be a slightly different, but I can guarantee that neither Enzo nor the men who hammered the body out would care one bit. These cars were tools, purely utilitarian machines. I feel like the best way to respect that history and continue the legacy their builders intended is to 1. use the car 2. maintain the car to the best of your ability. If the shape of the nose or the size of the fog lights inhibits your ability to use the car or maintain it easily and efficiently then go ahead and change it, I could care less. Unless you guys would rather these things spend more time in restoration shops and paint booths year after year then get off your high horse and enjoy these cars.
     
  13. Christian.Fr

    Christian.Fr F1 World Champ
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    Your very rude with Mr Tests, I think you must to read again, and again some excellent post of Mr Teste in vintage section and trying to find the truth with old pictures, considered like archives and not the recent and statict photograph of Mr SINGHOFS.
     
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  15. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Rookie
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    #63 Nembo1777, Aug 29, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2017
    Hello Timo.

    I wrote the book on the Breadvan, did lots of research, interviews of anyone of interest still alive then, drove it in Louisiana in 2000 and raced it at Le Mans Classic in 2008. It is the most emblematic one off Ferrari ever as well as the most famous non factory Ferrari. Even Fiat the owners of Ferrari who pull the strings agree.

    You are most probably aware of the controversial Ferrari Classiche program which some see as a way of milking classic Ferrari owners of yet more Euros (I agree 100% and am not interested in debating about this with anyone, no time, I'd rather have a glass of Barolo) but you may not be aware of the fact that a few years ago Classiche instigated a special program for Ferraris modified in period.
    The Werner family who owned the Breadvan from 2005 until a few years ago was asked by the factory if they could borrow the car at their cost to provide the example for this certification process. they agreed so the croissant charriot as I call it was trucked at the factory's expense -and I can tell you that Fiat is related to scrooge McDuck, they don't waste a penny- from Germany to the factory for the oohlala certification, duly photographed it in front of the old Enzo Ferrari building in the middle of the Fiorano test track etc etc...so it is thus officially the most recognized period modification of any Ferrari so your idea of rebodying it as a plain jane SWB -as pretty as they might be and as worshiped as they are by some- is driving people up the wall witness several emails I got and I normally don't get involved in such debates. So please take a deep breath and forget that idea.

    There you have it.

    You are in Riverside perhaps you knew my late friend Doug Magnon who when I stayed with him and his fiance there 4 years ago offered me to run his mostly Maserati museum, which she dissolved after his passing? He is very much missed.

    Best regards,

    Marc
     
  16. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO Formula 3
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    Yes, some people have the money to buy one or sometimes many rare Ferrari and can do whatever they want with them. In some cases we can say "unfortunatelly". Others don't have the money to buy a Ferrari but have the right to express an opinion.

    And if somebody wants a car to be restored to his liking, all it have to do is to buy it and commission or perform all necessary corrections ? Simple ? Not so simple ! Why do you thing that I have "only" a Dino in the garage ? The money !

    You want a rebody on the Breadvan ? See posts #54, #56 & #63. And what a stupid idea.

    There are more such endless talks in other threads.
     
  17. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie
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    I think Timo mentioned that he would do it if he could afford it and it were the only SWB. That's pretty limiting in and of itself. Anyway, it's just an opinion, no reason for people to be driven up the wall... Then again vintage Ferrari restoration is certainly a touchy subject.
     
  18. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie
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    Since it's a slow day at work and I'm in this mess already, I would also say that since I've joined FerrariChat I have seen many different types of people expressing different opinions on restorations, to varying degrees of success. For whatever it's worth, in all this time I have noticed comments by both members Aardy and Kare expressing their discomfort with restorations of cars - particularly those from the 1950's - and although I sometimes detect a certain disdain in their wording of disapproval, I've always considered them to be the 'purists'; and therefore have paid close attention to when they criticise a restoration because more often then not it is followed by fantastic picture evidence. A lot of times what they have to say isn't what most (including me) want to hear, and a lot of times I don't share their bother, but I'm glad they do say it.
     
  19. TTR

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    #67 TTR, Aug 29, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2017
    Thank you for some common sense.
     
  20. TTR

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    Hello Marc,

    Thank you for taking time to reply to my post.
    Although I haven't read it, I'm well aware of your book and your other associations with "the croissant charriot" 👍
    My point was just to demonstrate how differently we all feel and see these lovely cars.
    While I duly appreciate all the accomplishments of the "c.c.", I personally prefer the aesthetics and form of any & all "plain Jane SWBs" and monetary values notwithstanding would take any one before the "c.c." or even a 250 GTO. Just a personal preference, nothing more.
    And perhaps following will drive some people further up that wall, maybe even all the way to ceiling, but personally I would prefer seeing all the Nembos and Thomassimas, etc in "as born" form. 🙄
    Yes, I knew Doug and Yvonne. Even attended their C & Cs few times, usually after some early am test drive of a some car or another I was working on at the time.

    Kind regards,
    Timo
     
  21. GBTR6

    GBTR6 Karting

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    How about the, I think, GTO that mechanics hacked a hole in the nose for cooling at a race. Should that not have an effect?

    Perry
     
  22. P.Singhof

    P.Singhof F1 Rookie

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    Thank you very much, at least one who understood my post as it was intended
    Wow...you really have a thin skin and at the same time you are very offensive against the owners and restorers of cars you do not like in their current configuration.
    So take your example of the Rossellini 375MM...You have a picture (bw) from a very early day of the cars life and you take this as the only acceptable reference how the car should be restored without looking how this picture sorts into the life of the car. In post 41 you see a picture of the very same car a few years later and it is clearly visible that the nose changed as the lower part looks less curved. I am quit sure that the restorers of this car did a lot of research before they started the project and for some reasons they decided to keep the nose as seen on the green picture. Neither you nore me know the reason for this decision but I am very certain that they had a reason and knew what they were doing...
    You on the other hand take the picture you have and say this is the only acceptable configuration without any further background. So you have the right to say that YOU think that this nose is wrong today but as Timo said I have a problem with this belittling attitude towards the restorer who most likely did a lot more research on this car than you did and who most likely has a far bigger number of pictures from this car of every era of its excistence!!!
    And the story about Breadvan is not so absurd as according to your line of thinking everything else than the state of the car when driving out of the factory in Maranello on the day of its birth is not acceptable (or at least the first day a picture was taken of this car). And I think this is complete bullsh** as actually the history of the cars and what they "experienced" in their life is what makes them great and not only their manufacturing because when leaving the factory they still were just cars or a piece of metall without any history. Maybe the nose even has a funny story how Rossellino bumped on a stone and had the nose repaired in period making this more the car of him than just putting up the order and taking delivery...Who knows? Me not and I am quite sure you not either but still you think yours is the only acceptable opinion...
    Nobody expects you to look at my "statict photograph" ;) But obviously you are not very good in reasonable conversation as first you tell me I have to be biased or having personal interest and then you go after my photography...Well, if that is you only point ;)
     
  23. GTE

    GTE F1 Veteran

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    you mean 275 GTB/C sn 06885 during Le Mans 1965?

    Hole is fixed. Car probably the most valuable Ferrari today
     
  24. GTE

    GTE F1 Veteran

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    I don't really see a problem. 0402AM is no less 0402AM if it turns the nosejob is not entirely the same as it once was. Why shouldn't it win at Pebble Beach?

    Sure it is a gliding scale. Make the same car a convertible in 2017 might be taking it a little too far.
     
  25. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie
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    You'd have to look for consistency in the judging process.... If only cars that are as close to 100% accurate as possible can win, then 0402AM could be out of the running (considering there were other contenders in the same year trying to achieve that degree of perfection). If not, then - in terms of originality - what does make a car a winner?...
     
  26. ferrarip4

    ferrarip4 Formula 3
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    #74 ferrarip4, Aug 29, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Accurate to WHEN is also a question. Judging these cars is completely subjective. I can bet you that the Bugattis when they left the factory did not look as good as those show winners...

    Also if one takes your point to the extreme, then the 1962 GTO 3413GT converted to 64 specs should be converted back to 62. I know it's extreme but one can ask the question: should it be like it left the factory in spring of 62, or should it be like when it was rebodied by the factory in early 64? By the way even now 3413GT's nose is not correct if you compared to pics from the 64 Targa Florio.

    Pics in order: 1962 Targa Florio (fresh from the factory as a training car), 1964 Targa Florio, 2012 50th anniversary tour in France (Arthomobiles pic). You can see that even in its latest 64 version, the nose is completely wrong compared to the one from the Targa Florio, just after the car was rebodied...
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  27. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula Junior
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    I know the restorer of 0402AM. I can assure EVERYBODY that he did a VAST amount of research, including numerous trips to Italy and that he located a large number of period photos of the car BEFORE any metal was shaped. He is at the top of his profession and can support everything that was done in relation to the car with documentation.
     

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