Where are all the Pebble Beach Photographs?!?

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by 134282, Aug 21, 2017.

  1. ferrarip4

    ferrarip4 Formula 3
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    #76 ferrarip4, Aug 29, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I have to disagree and I think your comment could be seen as condescending to the people who built these cars who were proud artisans (just imagine the time it took to hand beat the body of a GTO). I have high resolution factory pictures of the 1st production 250 GTO 3223GT (see below) and in no way the body work and paint look "temporary". Of course they were repainted by new owners when they changed hands, but when they left the factory, they looked like new cars.
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  2. ferrarip4

    ferrarip4 Formula 3
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    #77 ferrarip4, Aug 29, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2017
    The question is was 0402AM such a significant car that it should have won at Pebble? I know of many more significant post war Ferraris (and non-Ferraris) that better fit the bill...

    From the outside, the Pebble Concours looks like a closed club with the same winners year after year...
     
  3. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    The nose of 3413GT was modified during 1965 and the rectangular lights were replaced then with the vertical brake cooling ducts.
     
  4. ferrarip4

    ferrarip4 Formula 3
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    Question is modified by whom...
     
  5. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    Yes, I agree with you. Are you able to answer the question if it was done by the factory/Scaglietti or not?
     
  6. malcolmjl

    malcolmjl Karting

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    I don't disagree that the cars left the factory looking "new." I do believe that the builders of these cars cared about nothing more than winning. They were prepared for on-the-fly modifications, scrapes and scratches. Sure they had pride in their work but you don't start building race cars dreaming about the museums and concours they'll be in some day, you just care about the podium.

    I can say for a fact that if I owned an Enzo era competition Ferrari I'd drive it into the ground, restore it and repeat. Good on these owners for putting in the work and using them, no matter where that may be.
     
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  8. ferrarip4

    ferrarip4 Formula 3
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    It could have, but I don't know the answer... Maybe someone does?
     
  9. ferrarip4

    ferrarip4 Formula 3
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    When you're Italian, you care as much about how you look as about winning ;-)
     
  10. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    "Books" suggest it was done before Corrado Ferlaino sold it.
     
  11. nschots

    nschots Karting
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    0452 MD not with Wexner any more ;)
     
  12. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    #87 kare, Aug 30, 2017
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    That is just the problem: they were built for a purpose - and now they are something else.

    In the day cars were built to be sold and now owners and restorers build for themselves. Imagine selling something very expensive for someone who does not necessarily have unlimited resources. Try reasoning, that it does not matter how it looks, as it is good enough in some other respect.

    The reality is that it needed to blow their minds. Be so pretty that the customer was about to pee his pants. That he was ready to pay too much for it, as he wanted it so much.

    Then try to apply the idea that "Sure they had pride in their work but...". It just does not work that way.
     
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  14. superleggera

    superleggera Karting

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    #88 superleggera, Aug 30, 2017
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    Here is the grille area of 0402AM when I was involved in the restoration in 1997 at Pete Lovely Racing. I did the grille surround and made the new grille (the old one was damaged and not repairable). Decision was made at the time to utilize the shape that already existed (and internal structure was formed for) and documented per historians (several) research and referenced by later pictures of the car when owned by Rosselini. Plus we never had a copy of the image the person keeps posting about here with the more oval grille.

    Important note: We did not remove the aluminum skin during restoration from the steel inner structure as it was in incredible condition and no galvanic corrosion issues. Aside from a few small cracks repaired (and dent removal and fixing the tail lights), it is 99% original and as built by Sergio Scaglietti and his crew -- and we retained all the non-symmetry in the body. If one ever gets the chance, look closely as all four fenders are different shapes, doors are offset, rear trunklid is skewed about 3 degrees and its all definitely handmade from a freeform wire buck structure.

    I was not involved in the recent "cleanup". I do know that in over the decade I was around this Ferrari, nobody ever once asked about the grille shape itself by judges, competitors or enthusiasts.
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  15. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    Here we have a typical problem:

    Should one try to re-create original specs, (which is impossible) or retain something slightly different that was done in the period?

    This is a very difficult question and in this case I think a very wise decision was made.

    To help in the thinking process I always remind: the nose is now one step (modification) away from originality. Putting it back would be two steps. One step is closer to original than two steps.

    Re-created shapes are always best guesses.
     
  16. Fennicus

    Fennicus Formula Junior

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    Yes! Money can not buy you the talent too see the shapes and colours the way the people who made these cars could see it in 3D inside their heads. Aardy has that talent, no question about it, just look at any of his work.

    Money can't buy you taste either, no matter how much you would wish it could.

    Thank you for posting the photos, I wish I could be there some year myself.

    Cheers,

    Pekka T. (with not so much money, but a masters degree in arts)
    Fin.
     
  17. P.Singhof

    P.Singhof F1 Rookie

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    This...
    People sometimes confuse "original" with "looks like the original" and call the later "authentic". Like in this case: why throwing away some period modification to make a new one just to be closer at a picture that only shows a snapshot in time.
    And then people who do not know the background of the restoration or the car sit 1000 miles away on their laptop comparing two images and criticize the rostorers who put in 1000 hours of work and research and have to make decisions the one criticizing never faced himself due to the lack of experience in this subject...And if one asks for the background other than a simple picture found somewhere one gets attacted by the miffy poster...
     
  18. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    #92 kare, Aug 30, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2017
    I personally think you are in denial with the fact that 98% of re-created shapes are not even close!

    In fact most of them are so far off, that the original design is totally ruined.

    I am fully were of the fact that restoration is all about "creating an illusion of the days gone". People connect and resonate, when they see or read something that is in balance with their expectations. Soo... for the general public most restoration are "awesome" - (authentic and documented originality would often be "too much to handle").

    The problem is that when you are in the know, you start to appreciate little things that you expect to be there, you expect that certain rules are obeyd (aesthetics, regulations, limitations set by methods, materials etc.) and this is where computer generated forms, CNC-machined pieces and too much metal in the paint starts to ruin the experience. This is where incorrect forms start to frustrate.

    Long time ago a friend of mine said that the problem with the Italians in particular is that they think anything they make is 100% correct because they are Italian - and they are "Ferrari". They are bold when they should be humble. Over the years I've started to think that this is really the thing that explains why all the California Spiders and Tour de Frances that have had their noses redone, look incorrect. The restoreres did not understand that the car is not just another long nose with covered headlights and that's why cars that originally looked crisp, clean and aggressive end up looking like fatty and frightened little fishes. If that is the result of 1000 hours of work invested into research and manufacturing, it is just sad - waste of time and money. I think it rather is a result of those people not really understanding what they are trying to re-create.

    Sergio Scaglietti was not just "another metal man". Had he been that he would have been sweeping the floors all his life like he did when he was 13. He had remarkable talent, an eye for detail that is unmatched in the history of automotive design and that is the main reason why he ended up building the most beautiful bodies for the most exclusive automaker in the world. I personally think that his talent was so huge that in the end (1960) Pininfarina seriously limited his freedom: he could not tolerate the attention Scaglietti's work was receiving. This is the background why I hope that restorers at some point would really understand that re-creating these shapes by just shaping metal is as easy as re-creating Monet's "impression soleil levant" on a basis that you once painted your house with success.
     
  19. Fennicus

    Fennicus Formula Junior

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    Right. But you are barking at the wrong tree. That was not at all what Aardy was suggesting. Yes, some call also me a "purist", but to me the whole history is important, including all the incidents, modifications etc. that may have happened in 40, 50 or 60 years (or now even 70 years for the very earliest cars) but that was not the topic.

    Some of us do not have the luxury to travel to places like Pebble Beach to be able to admire the beauties live. I have been fortunate enough to have been able to be at Villa d'Este quite a few times and you are right in that the camera can lie, depending on the focal length, optics and angle, but again I know Aardy can see beyond that. Anyone who has spent a lot of time making hand drawn images and scale models of these cars knows the challenges as well as the artisans doing bodywork. The same applies for colours, I do have to compare many photos taken by myself when trying to evaluate some metallic paints and their appearance in different lighting.

    1000 hours does not help, if you don't have the right eye. Some people can play the violin and some people can not learn to do it equally well even if they practice 1000 hours.

    I for one am always for the preserving of period details, mirrors, aerials, decals, aftermarket accessories as they all tell a tale of the car's past. In some cases it may be difficult, especially if the wealthy owner thinks he knows best. Live and learn. Every day.

    Great photos of bodywork on 0402AM BTW, thank you. I was thrilled to see the live colour footage of that car from the Rosselini era in the documentary film "Jag är Ingrid" (I am Ingrid).

    Cheers,

    Pekka T.
    Fin.
     
  20. P.Singhof

    P.Singhof F1 Rookie

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    No, I do not deny that there are mistake because it is not trivial to do this in 3 dimensions...And I am quite sure that you can always improve if you spend another 1000 hours after looking at the first result and then correct it over and over again...But where to end? What owner is willing to spend another million to have the restorers try and error until they reach a result that is to the standard requested here? I guess unless you undertook that task by yourself it is hard to say what it takes to achieve that and I think it is unfair, unrespectful and quite telling how it is commented here...Before you criticize restorers of the quality of Dennison, Carte or Russell like they do not have any clue you should prove that you are at least anywere near that or it is just empty words...
    Again: I do not have a problem if someone does not agree with the shape of a car, the question is only how you articulate this critics. And the one you defend here is way off in my opinion!!!
    Interesting, because I have seen much more worse scale models and drawings of classic cars in my life than anything else. Look how people discuss different noses on GTOs while there is not a single GTO-scale model where I would say this really matched the form.
    I do not understand why people restoring cars a lot of time have no clue but the one that does a drawing of a photo has???
    And I do not question "Aardy"´s eye but certainly his manners posting his critics! And as seen in this thread there is a reason why this nose looks like that but he does not seem to care as he only looks at a SINGLE photograph...
     
  21. ferrarip4

    ferrarip4 Formula 3
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    There were several geniuses like Servio Scaglietti in that era. I will name my favourite: Franco Scaglione.
     
  22. ferrarip4

    ferrarip4 Formula 3
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    Thanks for the amazing pics and clarification! I am ever amazed by the artistry of those panel beaters. Of course the result of their work is asymetrical as they only relied on their eyes, craft and experience but it is still amazing nevertheless. One should try to shape an aluminium sheet with a hammer just to understand how hard it is to do, let alone make these incredibly beautiful and complicated bodies...
     
  23. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO Formula 3
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    There are different ways to criticize or express an opinion. But don't be too harsh with those who criticize. There are many purists on Fchat and all agree that #0402AM is one of the most beautiful cars. The grille area on this car is just not the same as the original for the reasons kindly explained by "superleggera". But on many other cars, the noses especially or the rear fenders are completely wrong and could have been easily rebuilt properly. The list of those cars is long and not limited to Ferrari.
    I'm sure that you also have a critical eye. As a photographer, you MUST have a critical eye. Like a good model builder. Details...
     
  24. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO Formula 3
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    Yes, Scaglione and his fantastic 33 Stradale. And don't forget Piero Drogo or Medardo Fantuzzi. But many panel beaters will unfortunatelly remain in the shadow, and their names probably never be known.
     
  25. P.Singhof

    P.Singhof F1 Rookie

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    So you think this sarcastic comment about the judges and the owner is the proper way to express this criticism?
    And he did not even wait on any explanation why the nose looks like but was certain that he is right and all the judges, the owner and the restorers are wrong...
     
  26. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO Formula 3
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    It must be admitted that Cyril sometimes has hash comments. Personally I would not have expressed myself like this. But if you compare the b&w photo with the car today, you have to admit that the nose is not the same. As I said, "superleggera" gave a valid explanation in this case.
     

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