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Where to get an Approx. Depreciation of a car without books and records?

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by 308GTS, Dec 15, 2003.

  1. 308GTS

    308GTS Formula 3

    Dec 27, 2001
    2,220
    TN
    Where can I get a approx. depreciation of what a Ferrari would be worth without books and records. I know this has been brought up and usually it is around a $5K depreciation value but where could I get this in writing? Do we have any appraisers on FC?
     
  2. Dave

    Dave F1 Rookie

    Apr 15, 2001
    2,722
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    David Jones
    Sorry it doesn't work that way,
    there is no standard deduction
    because there are too many variables.
    Most appraisals would not be based on paperwork,
    but would be based on current condition of the vehicle.
     
  3. 308GTS

    308GTS Formula 3

    Dec 27, 2001
    2,220
    TN
    So basically you are saying a mint 308 QV with books and records is worth just as much as a mint 308 QV without books and records? I have to disagree with that statement.
     
  4. Dave

    Dave F1 Rookie

    Apr 15, 2001
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    "So basically you are saying a mint 308 QV with books and records is worth just as much as a mint 308 QV without books and records? I have to disagree with that statement."

    I didn't make that statement, you just did...

    I said there is no standard deduction, or "set amount" that you automatically remove because the car has no paperwork.
    A seller asks a price, you either pay that price, or negotiate a different price.
     
  5. Ksullender

    Ksullender Formula Junior

    Sep 3, 2003
    880
    USA
    I would agree with Dave that there is no standard deduction, but those factors would be based on negotiations. If you are shopping than you should have a comparison of comparable conditioned cars. Since there is no standard you will have to take the current condition of the car, factor the current selling prices and make a reasonable offer. If you provide more specifics then maybe some of the seasoned Fchatters/owners could throw some numbers out to you.
     
  6. 308GTS

    308GTS Formula 3

    Dec 27, 2001
    2,220
    TN
    That isn't the issue. I am not looking for an exact figure but I can say you won't see 2 cars exactly the same one without records one with all books/records for $500 diff. The point is cars with all books/records sell for more and not $300 more either. Check previous threads where the avg. is $5K deduction. Anyway, at least can you name some appraisers in the industry. That would help. Going into the entire situation wouldn't help especially since you can't see that cars with books/records sell for more. Why do dealers charge more for cars that are completely dealer serviced? No one ever pays more right? I would say if I sold you a car for a certain price and you thought it had complete books/records and didn't give them to you there would be a problem. Try to sell a Ferrari without proof of service and see how easy it moves without reducing the price below ones that have had a fresh service. Anyway I am not going to continue to argue that cars with all books/records bring more. If you don't believe that I don't care. I want to find appraisers, written documents not opinions. Please read my question.
     
  7. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

    Oct 19, 2001
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    Kenneth
    Yes and no. I think the way to think about it is that you don't deduct for poor records, but rather ADD to the value the better the paperwork is. This isn't just repair records, but any kind of provenance the car may have had. Racing history, famous owners, car show trophies....stuff like this will add value to a car. A great condition car with no records, while suspicious maybe, will still have the "market" value.

    Ken
     
  8. Dave

    Dave F1 Rookie

    Apr 15, 2001
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    And then again a car that has records showing that it had a 30k service performed in 1991, is still a car that is going to need to have it performed all over again.
    Are service and other records for the car good to have?
    Well sure they are, but there is not an automatic point removal system for each document that you deem missing.
    Point is, in the end the buyer and seller come to a reached agreement in the selling price of the car.
     
  9. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    6,333
    With out books and records, you have to assume that it will need a Major Service, new brake pads, rotors, a battery and fluids, and maybe even tires. Or maybe not! and the determination occurs at the PPI.
     
  10. 308GTS

    308GTS Formula 3

    Dec 27, 2001
    2,220
    TN
    I appreciate the info but I know if comes down to buyer/seller but my point is if you purchased a car and it was supposed to have all books and records and you paid this price knowing this, then you got the car and didn't get the books and records what should be done and what is a good price to work with? If you paid $35K for a car with all books/records and you never received them would you just let it slide or want you want some form of reimbursement?
     
  11. Dave

    Dave F1 Rookie

    Apr 15, 2001
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    Well I'm no lawyer, so I can't give any legal advice...
    All I can say is that this would never happen to me.
    I have done a number of PPIs for people,
    and if paperwork X is promised and not provided then the deals off... Always see before you buy!
     
  12. 308GTS

    308GTS Formula 3

    Dec 27, 2001
    2,220
    TN
    Well Dave your **** doesn't smell. In a perfect world there wouldn't be issues either. Again not looking for a legal answer, I am looking for values. Anyway if you have a decent answer respond otherwise Dave don't.
     
  13. JOECHRISTMAS

    JOECHRISTMAS Formula Junior

    Mar 4, 2001
    847
    Regardless what anyone says books and records make a large difference in value. I have no done quite a few exotic purchases and I would say that you can estimate at least $3000-$5000 deduction.
    Steve M. wrote up a nice est. for me once on 308s and he knows his values pretty well.
    Dave you are an idiot for saying something like that. Get a life.
     
  14. Juice It

    Juice It F1 Rookie
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    Sep 22, 2002
    3,233
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    Jeff
    I think the best you could hope for if you already did the deal and never received the books/records is the cost of new books. Records are nice to have, but don't really mean all that much. If a proper PPI is done and you figure out what the car actually needs, I think that is way more important than records. Like Dave said, if you have a record showing a 30k was done 11 years ago, you still need the service.I do agree however there are some buyers who are obsessed with records and wouldn't buy without but I would guess they are a huge minority. I would however want the books with my car and would assess the record situation on a car by car basis. If some shmuck was selling a Ferrari and wanted to meet you at a mall parking lot then yes records would be helpful, but if some guy owned a car for ten years and could tell you the history when he had it but not before you are back to the PPI.
     
  15. Dave

    Dave F1 Rookie

    Apr 15, 2001
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    Sorry if I hurt your feelings,
    and my **** stinks bad!
    I'm sorry someone got ripped off,
    but buyer beware, if your not going to check out a car before you buy it.
     
  16. JOECHRISTMAS

    JOECHRISTMAS Formula Junior

    Mar 4, 2001
    847
    I agree with Jeff but if you paid for the car and you didn't get them but they were promised you lost a good chunk of change. I am not that picky but I do my own work too. However if I do know that 308s sell for more with complete service history. So if I purchased one and paid slightly more for it because of a good service history I better get the records. Regardless many will pay a premium for a car with complete books and service records. Mike Sheehan I think does appraising. He could tell you.
     
  17. maranelloman

    maranelloman Guest

    For 550 Maranellos, in order to calculate depreciation, visualize looking over a very steep, tall cliff...
     
  18. 308GTS

    308GTS Formula 3

    Dec 27, 2001
    2,220
    TN
    You didn't harm me. The point is that you haven't answered the question and keep wasting posting space saying nothing. Again what is the value for books/records?
     
  19. atheyg

    atheyg Guest

    Their can be many determining factors on the value, a ratty POS 308 with records vs none will have a small difference in value but would be easier to sell, a pristine 308 may have a 5k-8k premium over one with no records, proper records dating back at least a decade or so will add 10%-20% value to the car and make it much more marketable.
     
  20. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

    Oct 19, 2001
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    Kenneth
    Books are on eBay; look there.

    Records aren't worth anything unless they show expensive services have just been done. If you're going to do a belt change anyway, that record is worthless. Most buyers figure they'll do a 30k regardless anyway. If you have a new clutch recipt, who cares? Were you planning on replacing it even if it was still strong? Nope.

    Does anyone really do a 30k and sell the car a month later? If so, then great, he'll tack on the charge to the sell price. Records are best to varify mileage; that's the only big value I see in them.

    Ken
     
  21. andrewg

    andrewg F1 Rookie
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    Sep 10, 2002
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    The only way of getting a rough figure in writing is to approach a recognised specialist and ask them to make a statement based on the condition of your car with and without proof of maintence, milleage etc.,
     
  22. atheyg

    atheyg Guest

    Records show much more than just if the belts have been serviced recently, they show the whole history of the car, who the owners were, whether they cheaped out on parts and services, problem areas the car may have had etc., my car had a 30k service and 1 year later had to have the engine pulled to replace the diff bearings from rust since the owner used Gunk to wash it down and it destroyed the seals, at the same time they replaced all the rod bearings since the motor was out, info like this is valuable to know.
     
  23. Juice It

    Juice It F1 Rookie
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    Sep 22, 2002
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    Is the real issue here that you bought a 308 and were told it had all books and records, you paid and took delivery, and now the seller won't produce them so how much can you go after him for? If so, it is a little different story. Did they promise in writing?
     
  24. 308GTS

    308GTS Formula 3

    Dec 27, 2001
    2,220
    TN
    Thanks for the info. Records IMHO are important and do show way more than just a recent service. It is the cars history but I am not here to argue about what records are worth.
    Jeff this is the point. A fellow chatter who wishes to remain nameless(many of you know them and this was their purchase) purchased a 308 and was promised all service history and all manuals and the original pouch that they came in. I didn't purchase this 308 and want to help this individual out. I am trying to just stick to the topic and not involve all of the parties. However when the car arrived it came with no books and no records. This is from a Dealer too. I don't have their name so please don't ask.
     
  25. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ
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    Feb 16, 2003
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    Han Solo
    So what I am seeing here is two scenarios,

    A. The dealer said all records would be included but were not provided and the promise was not part of a written agreement.

    B. Most of (A) AND the included records were part of the written agreement.

    Doesn't this constitute Fraud?

    In the case of item A I have heard that verbal agreements made at the time of sale while witnessed can be binding in some circumstances.

    In the case of item B it looks like fraud.

    How about a case of misrepresentation coupled with pain and suffering with a dose of simple pain in the ass! Whats it worth in court? 50k? 75k?

    Any legal minds out there that could provide recourse for this guy?

    DJ
     

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