Where's The Beef...?

Carb.

The earliest car related event I went to was in the early 70's. It was a Kirk White car auction.

There were fcars, and lola's, and old crap, and everything in between.

Like now, there were folks there that were speculators, and collectors, and those of us who prayed that we could someday own one of these fantastic cars.

I think some of the difference now is that there's more speculators than pure collectors (J. Glickenhaus is a collector) Folks who buy the cars as an investment and that's it. Garage queens reign supreme. Even the judging at concours events leans that way. Would my Dino ever win at a concours? Even though it runs better, and drives great, it has a non original ignition system, and the smog crap has been ripped off. NOT A CHANCE TO WIN.

But it drives great.

The same speculation drives prices up like crazy. Cavallino runs an article on the 250GT Lusso, and the prices run up like crazy. Look at them in the past 12 months. Everyone jumps on the Lusso bandwagon.

And, finally, the dollars are just incredible. You can't not pay attention to value. I'm driving $60-$70K worth of car, I'm having fun with it, but if I was driving $400,000 worth of car, I'd have to keep it original and drive it less to preserve it's value.

However, if you want to see Ferrari's for the fun of it ,come to Reading next year. 95% of those cars are driven in and driven home.

Keep cool,

DM

 

I think you're right about the focus on price in the consciousness of some of the community. Especially with the $5+ million cars, it seems like one of the first things out of some people's mouths is a mention of value. Honestly, I even find myself doing it when talking to a lay-person, like it's a fundamental part of the description. It's a shame. At least with really expensive art, you just assume that it's priceless and move on.

As for today's events, like you, Carbon, I don't really have anything to compare them to.

 

I can't afford a $400,000 toy, I have 4 kids lining up for college.

Different Yes, more innocent, maybe, better? Who's to say...

In some ways the whole world is uglier, but, I sat in the hall of my elementary school getting a lecture about not looking out the windows if there was a nuclear blast. Sitting around at age 8 wondering if the Commies were gonna blow us all up was not a lot of fun. WE did the "Duck and Cover" drills, over and over.

Now, it's just look all around all the time, and suspect everyone.

The cars work better now, gas is still cheap, and the technology of the world is amazing.

Who'd a thunk that the internet would have even existed 20 years ago when we were banging away on the original Timex Sinclair computers.

Don;t lament what you can't change, just enjoy the hell out of what you have now.

 

... but when I first really got into this classic car scene it was way cool to go and watch classic car racing (in New Zealand). Some fantastic machinery, like Lister Jags, Conaughts, GTA Alfa's, etc. ... not many Ferraris, but occasionally a BB or 2 would race (and really kick Porsches arse ... HARD!).

What happened to kill this ... cars prices shot up, and also many started to take Classic racing way to seriously (myself included).

Thus instead of seeing rare and interesting cars, we started to see more Lotus Cortina's and Alfa 105's that were nearly full race ... and were bloody fast. We also started to get the highly modified full race Porsches.

At the time we thought this was great ... but in hindsight, all these cars and the ATTITUDE that came with them was out of place with Classic car racing.

Nobody with a rare car wanted to race against us as way to many raced too hard as their car was now just a race car ... no longer a classic car.

Very sad ... and why I removed myself from the scene and went club racing.
Pete

 

disclaimer: I'm using a broad brush here, folks.

I'd say Napolis is an enthusiast on top of being a collector. Possibly what you or myself, let alone those who haven't posted saw in the 70's amongst those who hoped and prayed and what Carbon is describing as missing amongst cognoscenti is pure, unadulterated enthusiasm.

I mean, how many hoon-mobiles will one see in comparison to yesteryear?

 

Well, we didn't have computers and Elvis was still performing.

It was great to go to FAF in the 70s and just walk around. I was a rabid Ferrari enthusiast (the only one) in High School in semi-rural Alabama and would make the Haj to behind the grain silos in the industrial side of Tucker Georgia. There you were welcomed by like minded enthusiasts who didn't mind if you hung out all day and sat in every new Dino, Daytona or some 'old Ferrari racecar' laying around. People then didn't worry much about "what was the exact color was the wheelwell panel" It was a bretheren.

In my other avocation, you could still buy a F4U Corsair or P-51 Mustang for the price of a car....

These great folks are still around, but there are more speculators and poseurs now. One reason I think FChat does well - it's harder to pose so you actually get more enthusiasts.

 

carb - I feel like I need to break your query down into categories - namely street cars and race cars.

Street cars. there is absolutely no question that as late as 1984 or so, 330GTCs, Dinos, Lussos, etc. were , for the most part, viewed as odd, old street cars whose nut-case owners loved them and put up with them. Then comes the late-80s - world-wide speculation, junk-bond traders, and japanese businessmen desperately looking for collectibles as hedges aginst the inflation of their home economy. A whole class of speculators discovered Ferrari and really didn't think of them any differenly than a Picasso or some madly-appreciating piece of real estate. Where FCA Nationals had previously been places for the old-timers to meet and talk about what plug gaps they were running in their 275s, they became parades of highly (overly?) restored cars owned by a shockingly large of people who had no clue what they owned. For the most part, enthusiasts were shut out. In 1988, as a young professional, I remember consciously having to come to grips with the fact that I would never, ever own a Ferrari - and prices kept doubling for several more years. The speculation bubble bursting in the early 90s did two things - it allowed middle class enthusiasts like me a fighting chance to get back in the market, and it showed who among the big-money collector guys were the real enthusiasts - the guys who kept and loved their Ferraris as if they were their children even as the market indicated that their values were dropping real fast.

Race cars. Personally, I think the romantic days of guys like Bob Grossman showing up to the track in his 250 to race and then driving it home were pretty much over by 1960. The development of racing tires, much-needed safety requirements, etc. made weekend racing more and more for cars dedicated for track use only. On the other hand, my dad drove his 500 Mondial to and from Lime Rock and Bridgehampton (replacing the temporary muffler w/ straight pipes for the race) as late as 1968 - of course, by then a properly tuned Sprite could whip the big drum-braked car, so we parked it. I do not recall seeing any Ferraris being flogged in SCCA racing in Hawaii (1968-1972) or on the Pennsylvania Hillclimb circuit (1972-1975). By the time the go-go late 80s came around, Ferrari hadn't built any dedicated sports racers for about 15 years; and those were simply uncompetitive by 1988. So if you were an Owner of a vintage racing Ferrari in 1988, your choices were to vintage race it, show it, or cash out (or do what we did - do nothing). I agree with Dave's statement above, unless you're a really, really rich guy, you can't not think about the value of your $500,000 Ferrari as you enter a corner w/ a BMW 2002 trying to outbrake you 2" away. So, if you made the other choice and showed the car - and you cared about judging - then you were in for a lot of $$ and the car became a museum piece. Mr. G is the exception to this general rule. The reality is that, even after 1992, the vintage race Ferraris will always be very valuable and expensive. The fact that a 750 Monza may have been worth $1.5M in 1990 and is now worth a mere $900,000 doesn't really affect 99% of us. And I think that since 1992, the enthusiasts who also happen to be wealthy are here to stay and are running their cars (for the most part). I love seeing the success of the Shell Ferrari Historic series - God bless the guys running their Ferraris like that - but they must be loaded to afford the car in the first place, then ship it all over the place, and to afford to fix it when it inevitably breaks.

I guess the change I see in the show circuit between now and 1991, is that the paradigm of what is deemed a proper restoration has started to shift back to recognizing the value of preservation and patina. I think I have posted this before, but I will never forget being w/ my dad's car at the 1992 FCA National and seeing the shaking of heads and hearing at least a half-dozen times "what is that piece of **** doing on the field?" because it appeared exactly as dad last pulled it off the track in 68. I hope the people who made these comments have since left our Ferrari world w/ their quick profits and never come back (wishful thinking, I know). The same car, w/ no work having been done on it, made Sgr. Scaglietti misty-eyed at a show in 2001. I think the positive press/attention the Chuck Wegner's 246SP (0790) has received since its rebirth supports this shift.

Is the scene better now than 20 years ago? Different for sure - I think it is a hell of a lot better than it was about 12 to 15 years ago. I think there is a substantial gap between the enthusiasts of the new cars and the enthusisats of the vintage that will continue to grow. I do not have any aspirations of owning a new Ferrari; I appreciate them, but they don't do anything for me. I imagine that a lot of 360 owners aren't really moved by a 330GTC - it isn't the veritable rocket that a 360 is. I just hope that the newer owners appreciate that the heritage/passion created by the older cars is what gives Ferrari the mystique/soul it will always have over ALL other cars.

sorry for the ramble - your post just got me thinking . . .

 

I joined the working world as a young engineer in 1981. I was making 23k annually. I remember looking at Autoweek and other car mags and thinking that a 60's Ferrari was about 1 years salary and in a couple more years I would be able to own one. Then the prices went nuts and the dream died.

I am like you. The Ferraris of the 60's speak to me in a way that no other Ferraris do. Actually, most of the cars that I feel passionate about are 60's vintage.
If somebody gave me a brand new 360 spyder, I would sell it and buy a 275 GTS. No question, those cars move me, the new stuff doesn't.
I discovered Ferrari chat a little over a year ago. It rekindled the desire to own a Ferrari. Looking around I saw that cherry 4 seater F cars were about 1/4 of annual income. A GTC was 1/2. I started thinking that this was doable. I just needed to make sure a few family things came first and I was set.
Now it looks like prices are starting to rise after being flat for almost a decade. I'm thinking OH NO! not again!

Erich
someday I will own 12 cylinders.


Feel free to ramble any tim.

 

I opened the door to the the Holiday Inn room and steped out onto the deck.
The night was cool and there was a touch of fog as there often was near the sea. I walked to the Ice Machine and reached around in back where I'd hidden the Sara Lee Frozen Cheese Cake. It was still there. I walked back to the room. Eno and Marshall were still bent over the gearbox that was lying on a sheet of plastic on top of the bed. I put the Cheese Cake on the formica wood grain table and cut it into thirds. I placed two pieces on paper plates and walked to the bed. Eno took his piece and picked it up with his left hand. His right hand kept turning the wrench as he bit into it. Marshall put down the stripped gear he was holding and looking at and reached for his piece.

The BSA 441 Thumper was bit much on no sleep but the cool ocean air was waking me up. I pulled off the two lane and headed towards the Diner. Eno and Marshall were already at the track putting the rebuilt gearbox into the Big Lola. My job was once again to get food.

I was steeping out of the diner with a carefully packed box of six coffee's, and eight bacon and eggers when I saw the white pickup truck. It was pulling an open trailer. Sitting on the trailer was a white racecar. I'd seen white racecars before and they always meant trouble. This one looked like even more trouble than anything I'd seen before. Sticking out of the rear deck were two struts topped with something I'd never seen outside of an airport.

A tall thin man wearing a cowboy hat got out of the pickup. He streatched and took in the cool morning air like he'd been driving all night which he probably had.

He looked over at me and smiled.

"Morning Jimmy"

"Morning Jim." I answered.

"You 'd better get that food back before it gets cold."

"Yes Sir."

I watched him walk into the dinner, climbed back onto my motorcycle and headed back to the track.

I didn't tell Eno about the Wing until he'd finished his Bacon and Egger.
Everyone deserves a last meal...

 

That was pretty cool Napolis. Sounds like the start of a good bench racing story. If I ever get to meet you, I'll buy the beer if you tell the stories.

 

i tell you one thing, when i get my GTO, i'm driving it all the time. It'll be more used than the one in the current Forza.

It all comes down to one thing for me: You only live once, enjoy it

I'd take fun over money. If the car gets a bit messed during a vintage race or a briskly highway drive, i'll get it fixed. These cars were meant to be driven.




Chris

 

nice story Jim... sorry this probably obvious to many here, but is the white race car reference about a Chaparral CanAm?

 

How it should be:

 

Greg
That would be the one.
Best

 

hmm, wld make a nice addition to your stable.

 

It would but there are some things money can't buy and that is good.

 

The times they are a-changin'. Are they ever!
When I had my first Fer (a 250 Europa) in 1959, it never crossed my mind to not drive it! Hell, I was so tickled with it that I had to take everyone I knew for a ride. When I had 0515GT Zagato 250GT I used it for an every day driver. That was probably my third or fourth Fer. My punishment came one day when I got stuck at a stop light on an uphill grade outside the L. A. courthouse, and a big Caddy pulled up my rear. I knew the multi-disc clutch was a killer, and the emergency brake was useless, so nothing to do but shut the engine off, put it in gear, and go back to explain the realities to the Cad driver. But it didn't deter me!
Local club dinner meets would produce several 375MMs, 166MMs, TdFs, etc.
No doubt modern cars are infinitely superior, but I can't shake the feeling that we had more fun in days of yore!

 

I also really wish the guys who own the big dollar, "important" early Ferraris would bring them out and use them. What a shame that instead they just sit collecting dust in a garage or basement.

I have driven my Daytona exactly 4 times this year for a total of less than 300 miles. Its killing me! Bo Pirkle kept it for 4 months and the interior is still not finished and ready to be reinstalled. I am hoping (probably too optimistic) that I will have it together for Italian Car day but its a long shot. Still, when it finally is back together I plan on making up for lost time! If its sunny... its getting driven.

You can be careful and sane about where/when you drive and use a car frequently without having it suffer. There is just no justification for allowing a really cool car to languish.

I wish the "old timers" or whomever owns the really cool cars would either get active and start using them, or sell them to someone who will.

The europeans dont have this issue. They tend to not only drive and use the cars, but they pound the crap out of them. They have that amazing vintage rally culture where everyone pushes the cars and a scratch or ding is a badge of honor (and something to fix before the next event).

I wish we had that here. I am running my Daytona in the "Damn the Torpedoes Challenge", the local open road race between Athens and St. Marys Island in early November. Should be a real hoot!


Terry

 

I do think owners view things differently in this day and age.
Just take a look at the many threads and posts on this site.

Buyers these days are WAY too afraid of:depreciation, miles, chips, leaving the car outside, maint. issues.(anyone feel free to add to the list).

While these are all valid issues and should be considered when purchasing a car, the REAL value in any collector or high performance car is the FUN you have in driving/fixing/restoring it.
Whether you pay $30k or $400k for it.

 

I remember watching a video about 3 or 4 years ago about some classic fcar races at Laguna Seca raceway. The race must have been mid 90's. Stirling Moss had been out in a 250SWB or 250TR (can't remember which) but was being interviewed shortly after been black flagged for "racing too aggressively". He wasn't amused.

Cheers
Simon

 

Simon,

That was at the Monterey Historics, and Moss was driving a newly restored Aston Martin, a DBR-1 as I recall, belonging to Aston. At the start he tried to pass several cars by going through the dirt and hit at least two, damaging them plus doing pretty good damage to the nose of the Aston. He was suspended for 13 months, which is the standard penalty at Monterey for causing avoidable metal-to metal contact. The two guys with damaged cars who had done nothing wrong were even less amused.

Simply put, Moss made a bone-headed move.

 

TV viewers in the U.S. should be sure to tune in to Speed Channel this Wednesday night (the 29th) at 8 p.m. ET for an Autorotica show on this year's Monterey Historics races.

One of the highlights of this years races was that 22 250GTOs were all on the track at the same time. I don't know if they will show the 250GTO whose driver crashed and mangled the nose of the car.

John

 

I saw the tv broadcast of the Monterey race where Moss smashed the Aston DBR1. Note, it was not just any Aston DBR-1 but the actual 1959 Salvadori/Shelby Lemans winner. Moss went down the inside into turn 1 on the starting lap while everyone was bunched up and punted the crap out of a Jaguar D-Type plus other cars were damaged in the ensuing pandemonium. It was a brain fart move... something someone like Moss should have known better than to try.

Still, the euro attitude toward racing these cars is fantastic. Nobody minds that a particular car may have been smashed hard and fixed back in the day, so why should it matter that the car is smashed hard and fixed after a current vintage racing accident. I disagree with folks who seem to think that current vintage racing history means nothing. If you go out and win the Goodwood TT.... you have won a REAL race in my book! If you win the Mille Miglia or one of the other major vintage rally events, you have accomplished something.

Keep them racing!


Terry