Where's The Beef...?

Thats right, it was the AMRI incident I was thinking of. I stand corrected, the only info I had on the incident was Moss's reaction afterwards.

Cheers
Simon

 

Terry
That's all well and good but the crash bang that some of this has become has resulted in the FIA now having to issue papers to pure replicas in order to fill the grids as some owners of these pieces of history, as some of these cars are, aren't interested in destroying them. Some even feel that they don't have the right to destroy them. Look at the second to the last photo of the red GT 40 (#14).
Look at the last photo. (Have to resize) That's what remained before it was "brought back".
Anything can be brought back but once somethings are gone they are gone forever.
These Photo's were taken by Paul Thompson and posted on GT40s.com. The copyright remains with him. (The thoughts are mine)

I think Steve Earl's rules are very well thought out and allow Great Vintage Racing without the likelyhood of destroying something that is irrreplacable.
Moss was an as shole on that day. Period. Especially as it wasn't even his car.
Why he'd feel he had the right to do that is way beyond me.
As for Vintage racing being real racing my friends who drive the RS8 would:
ROTFLOL.

 

Opps...just reread my post I meant DBR1 not AMR1.

Its great to see these cars campaigned hard. I more or less spent my childhood at Oulton park watching club racing, the AMOC events were a favourite for myself and my friends. But its very easy to sit on the side lines and say its just a piece of metal, it can be repaired when its not your own car. I'm just glad there are enough guys out there who are willing to race their own cars hard to entertain the rest of us.

Cheers
Simon

 

GT 40 P1005 before it was "brought back"

 

There is a happy medium, and I actually tend to think the Euro's do a good job maintaining it. AS hard as they race the cars, as Jim pointed out, its not as hard as they raced "back in the day" and its not modern racing. When these cars were new drivers were getting killed in them all the time. Vintage racing just does not have the carnage, which of coarse is a great thing.

I also dont have any problem with replicas racing. I dont mean Chevy engined look alikes or anything.... but if a car is a nut and bolt accurate 100% recreation of the real thing, let it race. I would rather see full grids and hard racing with accurate replicas than a small grid and everyone tip-toeing around because they are too worried about the cars. IF you want to have a parade, then by all means have one. But if you want to have a race.... then RACE.

I see no problem with leaving the truely historic cars at home to be preserved and racing the accurate replica. Best of both worlds. The spectator nor the drivers should really car that the 250TR they see sideways on the track beign pushed at the limit is "real" or "replica". If it looks like, sounds like, drives like and is raced like the real thing.... I am happy.


Terry

 

The purpose of Vintage racing is to give the fans a chance to see, hear and smell old racecars at speed. The purpose is not to reward and recognize the best driver or fastest car. That is what modern racing is for.
Steve Earle's rules promote a good show. They are the right balance between letting the cars molder in a museum and having them smashed into unrecognizeable rubble.

I don't want to see a replica TR on the grid. I would cry for the 250 GTE that was sacrificed to make it.

Erich

 

Perfect comment ... and I could not agree MORE.

You win nothing when you win a classic car race, you just finished first. No REAL race team is going to ring you up and give you a professional drive based on that result.

The funny thing is that REAL racing series are desperate for competitors and money, etc. ... and yet some think that classic car racing is for real, and quite simply missing a golden opportunity to really become racing drivers.

Pete

 

You guys can pretend that vintage racing drivers shouldnt or dont care about winning at all and that its all just about demonstrating the cars for the fans.... but I strongly suspect those with that opinion have never been on a racetrack.

Clearly vintage race drivers are not pushing as hard as "real" racing drivers and winning is only going to boost your ego, but make no mistake: guys who are racing do care about winning. Second place after all is just the first one to lose. Guys who can afford these cars and can afford to race them DO have large ego's and they are used to winning at life in general. You put them in a racecar, on the racetrack with other racecars and wave a green flag and if you dont think they are racing.... well the guys at the front are!

Because of the low levels of grip, skinny tires, high horsepower and four wheel drifting cornering style the above bring I find vintage racing far more entertaining to watch. The TT race at Goodwood is better racing, more entertaining and has far more interesting cars than anything that happens in the ALMS series. The fact that the drivers are not paid and its just for fun does not detract from the quality of the racing. Neither does the fact that none of the drivers are pushing in a "win or crash" way.



Terry

 

Wrong. I actually started my humble racing career racing an MGB in classic racing. I then bought an Alfa Sud (yep not much of a car, but I'm not in Jim's level and I wanted to race an Alfa Romeo but not to destroy a 105 series ... ) and modified the cr@p out of it to play in the new modified class they made in New Zealand for classic saloons.

Then one day I looked at the holes, etc. I had drilled into this once loved road car (okay I had grown fond of the thing too) and thought to myself, what the fnck am I doing. Winning has become more important than the CAR. I then left the classic racing scene and went club racing where my ego and the lack of respect for the car perfectly matched the scene.

You see, while I am not saying that a person's life is less important than a car, the driver of a 250GTO or TR or (my favourite) LM pails to insignificance to the car at a classic meeting.

Even Jim, cool guy and somebody I consider a mate, but if I have flown all the way to New York to see his P4 and GT40 ... lets just say that meeting Jim first hand is a big bonus .

And yes I agree ... but that also is the problem, many do not LOVE the car, they just want to be part of the rich and famous and currently trendy scene. Classic car racing drivers should as a requirement love the car and race to return the car in good condition and definitely NOT race to win at all costs.

Yep.

Pete

 

I think that they are mostly great drivers, and I think that they push the cars hard.

That said, when you go to the historic challenge and see a BBLM and a 512S running in the same race as a couple of 250s, finishing the race in first is obviously not the primary concern of some of the drivers. A BBLM driven reasonably is going to beat a 250 GTO driven my the best driver in the world every time.

What about the individual classes? Check out all the classes, 3/4 down the page: http://www.ferrarichallenge.com/content.asp?content=175&series=Historic&year=2004
In a race, there may be just one or two cars in each class. I don't think many people pay attention to the Historic racing results, because what do they really mean? 1p overall will tend to be won by the most modern car, and within the classes, there may not be more than another couple cars. Winning your class is obviously a goal... but is there that much glory in beating the only other 250 TDF in the field? Or is it, rather, to go out there and push the car and have fun? I think the car being out there at all run hard is what it's all about.

 

Quote:
And yes I agree ... but that also is the problem, many do not LOVE the car, they just want to be part of the rich and famous and currently trendy scene


For MANY in the clasic car world, it is ONLY about being part of the "in" crowd. They know nothing about the cars. They simply can afford to own them. As far as I'm concerned, these people should be imprisoned, along with all the illegals.

 

Er, only after they have funded a perfect restoration ... they have their uses.

Pete

 

I've been involved in vintage racing for almost 10 years and have experienced a reasonable range of vintage racing philosophies in North America, with VSCCA, VARAC, SVRA, HSR and with Steve Earle on the East Coast with the Fall Vintage Festival at Lime Rock.

The thing to remember is that there really is no real glory in coming in first in a vintage sports car race. Sure, when I am out on the track I am going as hard as I can and will work pretty hard to catch and pass someone in front of me, but at the end of the day, there is nothing to be gained by putting a vintage race car, particularly one with a significant racing history, at the risk of bending sheet metal or worse. No one, other than the driver, cares 10 minutes later who "won" a vintage race. All of the relevant race history of the car was made decades ago and nothing that is achieved in vintage racing will add significantly to that history.

I do think that people who race vintage sports cars have a responsibility to try to do it in a way that achieves a balance between using the car the way it was intended and preserving the car for future generations. So I do not agree with the philosophy that drivers of vintage race cars should put them at the same risk or view them as rebuildable/replaceable as current race cars.

There are plenty of current real race series for drivers who have something to prove to compete in. Vintage racing is about taking the cars out on the track, running hard, but still dialing it back just a bit to preserve them. There is no room for the "red mist" in vintage racing.

Just MHO

John

 

Agreed.

Two years ago Ford was the featured marque at Monterey.

In the Trans Am finale, the Lime green Dodge Challenger was clearly the fastest car out there. He was passing at will. About 2 laps from the end he lost a little speed, the Boss 302's caught up and they made a nice pass in a corner. The Challenger then chased them on their tail all the way to the finish line.

The featured marque "won", there was lots of passing and a good show was put on. Think WWF not F1

Erich

 

I found this on the website that is selling the 212 spyder 0253eu.
http://www.cpcars.com/Englishversion/Ferrari212-225.htm

It expresses my thoughts better than I could. Thankyou Christian Philippsen.

Historic racing knows a growing success. Several world-class events, like Monaco, Le Mans and many others, organize spectacular retrospectives. In England, The Earl of March went to the extent of 'restoring' his Goodwood track in the condition in which it was when it was closed in 1964. To the opposite of many who marvel, I am worried by the shape things are taking.

I am worried for two reasons.

First, the cars were dangerous and have remained as treacherous as they were. Driven today by the same drivers who used to race them, older and, probably, less sharp, or by others, not always talented, the risk only has increased.

Which brings me to the second point. I observe that Bugattis now have limited slip differentials, that Ferrari 250 engines rev above 10,000 rpm's whilst, in their days, 7,800 was in the red, and hear that Maserati 450S's run with completely re-designed crankshafts. I am even told that some entrants who own a real car commissioned a new and high performing replica for historic racing purposes. Historic, you said?

I do not wish to be the bird of ill omen and hope we can avoid a catastrophe. The knot of the matter, I believe, lies in the agonistic spirit presiding over these meetings. Too many pilots want to score. Some flatter themselves with being faster than our heroes of yesteryear and claim, seriously, they are continuing writing the pages started by Nuvolari or Fangio. Am I dreaming? Aren't there enough modern formulas open to those who wish to demonstrate their capacities behind the wheel? Historic cars are part of our heritage . Not only should we not misrepresent history, but we also have to make sure we transmit our heritage to the future generations.

Don't misunderstand me : I am not suggesting that historic cars should not be driven anymore, nor that Monaco, Le Mans or Goodwood should not stage classic revivals. A motor car is beautiful when it goes and when it sings, and the real automobile museum is indeed the road and the track. It is the competition I fear, because it induces danger and the temptation to cheat. My friends, the world does not care about your results. Stop being silly!



April 2003

P.S. Interestingly, it appears that, in the 2004 Grand Prix de Monaco Historique, the part that was most appreciated by the public was the parade of 22 Formula One Ferraris of all ages. The music, the scents, the colours ... but no stake.

 

Perfectly said.

Pete