Which 250 GTO is the best of the best?

My favorite is 4091GT because I loooove the 64 body style and that darker red shade

Here is a nice shot of it on that bridge south of Monterey:

https://www.conceptcarz.com/view/photo/748833,11667/1962-ferrari-250-gto_photo.aspx

In terms of the best one it would be the combination of best racing results and originality obviously.

 

I would tend to agree but I believe it’s one of the rebodied cars. Not the huge a deal in the overall scheme, but if you love series II cars, the original three have a certain mystique.

 

RC1 - Rebodied by Ferrari itself so shouldn't matter although thats personal opinion....

 

Good point. Curious - were all the rebodied Series II cars done by Ferrari?

 

RC1, to leverage off your other comments about Classiche. There was a very well known GTO that had been horribly wrecked. We're talking to the firewall. The car was rebuilt many, many, moons ago. A few years back, the car was presented to Ferrari for possible Classiche certification. Ferrari reportedly said the rebuild would have to be scrapped and rebuilt by Ferrari to be certified. Maybe now you understand why so many are cynical about Ferrari's intent in this area. Simply put, it really, really is all about money.

 

No worries. Thanks for the info regarding the GTO. What’s the number of this particular GTO? I’d love to learn more about it. I don't doubt there are disputed cases like the one you’re referencing. I’d love to learn more about the evolution of the car, it’s restoration, the issues with it, etc. I find that fascinating.

From what I’ve gathered, that the debate about Classiche seems to rest primarily in the vintage world, for understandable reasons. Owners and third party historians, in many cases, seem to know the history of these cars much better than the factory. Interestingly, I met owners of similar uber premium vintage cars that are Classiche certified, so it seems that it’s a mixed bag. I guess the question is, are the disputed cases the exception or the norm. There’s obviously traction being made with many high end cars. Are those owners just suckers and the others much more enlightened? It’s very interesting.

 

Two points
1 - All series IIs were rebodied by Ferrari themselves or if they were too busy sent to Pininfarina or an agent but all were official Ferrari and fully accepted. It simply comes down to would you prefer a car with two lives or one that is more pure. Both are genuine, authentic, real 250GTOs and both are series II and both will get red book classiched as such since their requirement is "in the spec. as it last left the factory" .

2 - Ferrari started Classiche stating that even if fitted with a genuine part, if it isn't numbers matching, say a GTE engine in a SWB, it must be replaced with a newly built Classiche part that is then restamped with the original components number. Right or wrong this is another revenue stream which engines running well into the six figures. Its an ethical dilemma as to whether an incorrect contemporary part or an all new but Ferrari approved part is better BUT thats what they require for classiche certification.

 

Thanks for the info

 

Hello Timmmmmmmmmmy
Can you tell me which GTO’s were coachbuilt by Pininfarina? And which GTO by “an other agent”
You seem to know very much about GTO’s.
This is what we need on fchat; real historians!

 

The GTO was not a Pininfarina design with the exception of the Lusso LM style berlinettas. I believe that the regular GTOs were bodied by Scaglietti with some of the 64 rebodies by Drogo? I could be wrong and welcome clarification by those more knowledgeable.

 

There are a few history of GTO books out there. A good number of these cars have been wrecked, sometimes more than once. After all, most of these early Ferraris were little more than thinly disguised race cars and were used as such.

Perhaps it will help you to understand that before mid ‘80s, these cars were just old cars that only a few, many of whom are members of FerrariChat, cared about. Spa certainly didn’t give a damn about them. They didn’t even have the build sheets. The fact that many of these cars are still around today can be traced to the efforts of these hard core enthusiasts, who weren’t doing it for the money.

Everything changed in the late ‘80s when inflation pushed wealthy investors, particularly the Japanese, to start buying all kinds of hard assets, eg Sony tried to buy Pebble Beach. This first bubble crashed by the early ‘90s, but the die was cast. Suddenly these old pos cars were now collectors items.

Perhaps now you understand why many in the vintage world think Classiche is a money grab by Ferrari. Ferrari ignored these cars for decades. But now that there is money to be made, Spa loves them. So, who really loves ya, baby?




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The S2 1964 250 GTO was a Pininfarina design. As far as I am aware, S1 and the 7 (3+4) S2 250 GTOs were all bodied by Scaglietti apart from the first 2 S1s which are said to have been bodied by the factory.

 

Anyone who ever considered these cars as just "old cars" are not real Ferrari enthusiasts and only appreciate them now because of their monetary worth, not for what they actually are. GTOs and a number of other classic Ferraris were escalating in price way before the mid '80s.

 

I understand, but the big bump came when Enzo died and many investors were looking for alternative hard assets to invest in.

Do you dispute my comment that Spa didn’t care until recently?


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Appreciate the info. I love Ferrari and it’s history. Though my cars are an 89 328 GTB, 99 355 F1 Berlinetta and a future coming 488 Pista, that doesn’t mean I don’t have a passion for the vintage cars. For cars like mine, I’m a big fan of Classiche. I enjoy the certification process and having that stamp of approval. It also does add value to cars like mine. Most vintage owners I’ve met are great and they are more than happy to engage about the older and newer cars. Some I’ve encountered seem to be frankly angry that somehow time didn’t stand still in 1965. The humorous thing is, that old 250 that they bought in 1972 for barely nothing that’s worth millions today, they can thank the very forces you mentioned. I suppose some of them really don’t care about the money, but I’m guessing many and their heirs do. I’m not sure if any of us couldn’t care less about millions of dollars. Honestly, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. Who can blame them?

As for Classiche and the vintage clsss, I certainly have a lot to learn. It seems Ferrari should invest much more in their engagement with vintage owners and historians to improve Classiche. Having said that, I’m sure there are many cases where Classiche restoration and certification has worked out great for all involved. I’ve talked with a few myself. Like anything, the most controversial examples surface and some assume that’s the norm. I also think you’re very right when you say that Classiche is a profit making division for Ferrari. What I don’t understand is why anyone has an issue with that. Why shouldn’t it be? Other historians and restoration shops around the world charge for their work, so I don’t see why Ferrari should offer their services for free. If they improved their efforts in the vintage world it would seem they have a ton to gain. It will be fascinating to see how things evolve. I don’t imagine Classiche is going anywhere.

 

The problem with Classiche is not that they make a profit, but that they commit so many errors. As I have said many times before, the factory has no records other than build sheets and blueprints as to how the cars were originally built. These documents only cover major mechanical components, not bodywork or minor ancillaries. Also, unlike cars such as 308 and later, nobody is still at the factory who was there when the earlier cars were built. They have little or no historical photos of the cars, asking Marcel for copies of his files to try to learn about a car. The real problem is that they do not listen to the acknowledged experts. With the factory, it is their way or the highway. Many times they have no original photos of certain models, only using modern photos of cars. If this photo is in error, then that error becomes gospel.

 

Porsche only charges $100 for a Certificate of Authenticity. Ferrari charges quite a bit more.

 

It’s a real shame if they don’t absorb as much information as possible.

 

I don't know that they didn't actually care, only that they may not have had systems in place to back the cars up as well as they could have, or compared to a high volume manufacturer, but this is true of many of the low volume manufacturers, not just Ferrari.

Which GTO are you talking about in post 30?

 

Not going to go there. Those who know about it, know about it. The info was told to me in trust, and there it will stay.

 

When you said: "Ferrari reportedly said the rebuild would have to be scrapped and rebuilt by Ferrari to be certified." If the rebuild wasn't up to standard it seems a perfectly reasonable request that it be rebuilt.

 

All I'm going to say is the rebuild, which happened long ago, had been signed off on by various experts. Classiche's position was it would have to be redone by Ferrari before they would certify it.

 

So was the work actually then carried out by Ferrari and the car certified?

 

Yikes! But I can think of no finer way to go that to be impelled by the greatest car on earth just after a moment of terror.

 

I don't believe it was.