Which 250 GTO is the best of the best?

I don't participate in many of these discussions here, but I do read them, and I do have many clients and friends who have had Ferrari go deep into their pockets. I am certainly one who is ok with making money on various services, but I have a thing about being honest and ethical, and not being an extortionist, especially when we are talking about something as unique as these wonderful automobiles, which have most definitely attracted many investors vs. true enthusiasts. Also I am passionate about what I do, it's not just manufacturing something, and then using that to springboard into a basic money grab. And it is all about the money with Ferrari S.p.A. For many years, they did not give a damn about the vintage cars until they discovered on e day that there was a lot of money to be made by creating this special department. I am not saying that they should be doing this for free, not at all. But it is the way they have done this, and what they have done that is the real problem. In some ways they have actually done some good, but in reality it has been more on the bad side. They have consistently made many errors/mistakes, and never acknowledge or accept that they don't know it all. Some in the Classiche department know very little about the cars they are certifying. A simple comparison....For something more serious than a head cold, I prefer to see a real doctor instead of a nurse or a P.A. As Dyke put it very well: ".....they do not listen to the acknowledged experts. With the factory, it is their way or the highway." AND if something is in error, and Classiche decides that is the way it should be then it "....becomes gospel.....", and history gets (incorrectly) revised again.

Then there are other issues with this so-called factory certification department.... If you as an owner of a vintage Ferrari want to participate in certain Concours events, as well as sell your Ferrari(s) at certain auctions....the extortionists at Ferrari then insist that your car must be Classiche certified.

 

All GTOs bodied by Scaglietti.

Yes all the Series 2 cars can potentially get a Red Book, subject to the usual inspection to determine if they are actually as they left the factory. 5571 would not get one with the tipo 128F GTE engine in the car for example of course. Yes, I know the owner will probably have the original GTO engine too. 3413 may not get a Red book due to the nose not being as it last left the factory, but it may qualify for a White book as is as it raced in period with the amended nose with upright cooling ducts. Classiche would probably insist that the radiator grille and shape of the surrounding nose be amended to how it was when raced though.

 

I think you mean tipo matching.

4153 got White Book Classiche Certification with a modded SWB engine as it raced with that engine in period. If the car was resubmitted with the correct tipo 168/62 Comp. engine (that it has with the car) then it would no doubt get a Red Book.

 

No no Pininfarina and other “agents”

 

Oh, yes of course.

 

Pourret/Blumel discuss the Series II coachwork as being a Pininfarina design, was it built by Scaglietti? Otherwise all good points.

 

What s/n’s were built by Pininfarina and “other agents”
I am here to learn from you.

 

MiuraSV covered this well
The first two were bodied by Ferrari themselves to Ferrari engineer Bizzarini's design (3223 and 3387) initially without the tail spoiler and post Daytona, with it.
All other GTO Series Is were bodied by Scaglietti (their 1962 and 1963 agents)
All GTO Series IIs were built to a Pininfarina design. Where it gets slightly opaque is who actually physically bashed out that bit of alloy, was it Pininfarina or a local coachbuilder (perhaps Fantuzzi, Scaglietti and/or a smaller shop) if they were busy, does it matter?. After all the SWB, California and others were PF designs but physically built by Scaglietti, otherwise Boano and others did the same in the 1950s. Even Classiche outsources a lot of work to local firms and so long as it has their official imprimatur, does it really matter?

In brief Series I is by Scaglietti to a Ferrari design
Series II is by Pininfarina to their own design.

 

Yes, PF design. Built by Scaglietti.

 

Bodied by themselves?
Did Ferrari have a carrozzeria themselves?
What cars (bodies) did they built in Maranello by SpA?
2 GTO’s...and as they would have needed many tooling and equipment it would have been used for more than those two cars.

 

GTO 3223 was initially presented without a tail spoiler, but the model always raced with one. Although a number of sources including Pourret have stated the first 2 were bodied by the factory, TomGT may well be correct about the first 2 also being bodied by Scaglietti.

 

Quoting Bluemel/ Pourret, the first car to where GTO coachwork was a 250GT Short Wheelbase hack (#1791GT) and it was slowly built up by Bizzarini and tested. Ferrari did have an experimental dept that could do just about anything. To that extent #3223GT and 3387GT were handbuilt in the experimental dept. All of the others were built by Scaglietti to the form that they were tested at Monza (with the tail spoiler).

 

Great thread, great cars so perused through and learning a lot from you folks about a car that really wows me. Thanks for sharing.

 

I agree on post points here. But please keep in mind that all other manufacturers did NOT care about their old products in the 70s/80s (despite Mercedes Benz!): BMW, Jaguar, Aston-Martin, Porsche - they simply did not care! So we can not blame Ferrari for the same ignorance (I got a Daytona from my father`s estate. My mechanic could not get some parts in the late 70s. I sent him to Maranello. He came to the customer department, explained what he wants.... and was -more or less- thrown out with the words: "What does your boss want with this old tatty car??? Tell him to buy a new Ferrari...!").

Now these old cars are used by the manufacturers as PR-tools for their manufacturers. I am not a big friend of the Classiche procedure and I don`t like in particular is that Ferrari charged different money for a 328 and a GTO based on their value.

Keeping the spirit alive where not on the agenda of the former 250GTO owners .... this was done by the enthusiasts that were happy to affort a 308, 250, 330GTC etc, etc. (and -of course- by those enthusiasts like Ed Niles, Hillary Raab and the Admiral).

 

The best one... The one I can afford; but at the moment it seems unlikely I will own a real one.

 

True but Porsche COAs are notoriously inaccurate.

 

The best one is the one you enjoy driving. If it is just to keep in in a garage, you can as well put some gold bars in a safe or a Van Ghogh in an even bigger safe.
The now Ex Glaesel car was driven hard at many events , I remember driving next to them at 2 tour Auto ( with a much plebeian car, a Tour de France and a 250 LM) but we had a lot of fun. Sadly it is more and more difficult to take very expensive cars on the road and the big road / race events have less and less of them, ,,even total replicas at Le Mans Classic,,and the good cars come for the PB Tour of Elegance at 35 miles per hour with motorcade,,,
So today they are driving a GTA with a lot of skills though,,,although we see the Cobra Daytona regularly,,,but most people don’t know what it is,,,and how rare it is. And our group of friends had in TA a Daytona comp, a 250 MM and a Maserati 200S,,,but we are dinosaurs...

 

Frankly this is the first time I have heard this. All the COA says is this is what our records show was on the car when it left the factory.


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I can’t speak to whatever Porsche does. What I can say is that the Classiche process with Ferrari for my 328 was anything but a breeze. A very extensive application, extensive photographs, followed my multiple requests by the factory for additional information and photos all proved to me that they were very detailed and thorough. Keep in mind that this is all for a 328. Hardly a vintage legend. I feel like the certification is well worth the price. Again, it isn’t for everyone, but for those like me who enjoy preservation and concourse competition, it is a priority.

 

I have a soft spot for 3223. Only one I've seen up close and personal, and it is the 1st. Can only be one of those.

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My favorite GTO event was 2004 in Monterey. I forget how many were on the track, but it was a lot. I suspect it may be a long time before this happens again.

 

Very nice. I love how clean it is without all that god awful livery that most GTO owners feel compelled to plaster all over their cars. This is so nice.

 

I agree, but most are trying to be as detailed and correct as the cars were when they raced in their time period.

 

Yeah I get it. And, in fact, if it was the original livery that was left of on the car from say Le Mans in 1964 I would understand, but that isn’t the case. It’s mostly, if not always reproduction graphics. In fact, livery was applied specifically for racing purposes, so it makes no sense to apply them. It’s a shame in my opinion because these amazing cars look so much nicer without all the silly numbers and big white dots. Then again, I’m sure I’m in the minority.

 

My recollection is those photos are from 2005, at the FCA PA concours.

D