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Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by kizdan, Mar 26, 2004.
Which drivers do you think are OVER-rated?
Choose all that apply.......
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Webber, Massa, and Sato.....
my 2 cents....don't spend it all in one place.
Cool poll, good idea I like it!
the only ones i did NOT think were overrated are ms, rubens, alonso, kimi, webber, button. all the rest have been getting far more kudos than their performances can back up (jpm, ralf, dc, fisi, trulli, damatta, panis), or they are not even worth their superlicenses (all the rest of them).
Glad to see Alonso still has a clean record.
However the question is really what does "overrated" mean? Too much hype and/or too much salary?
For instance Quick Nick drives for free at Jordan this year. Granted he is no Schumacher, but the Jordan sucks. So is he really overrated driving at zero salary (although he still has income from his personal sponsors)?
Or Klien: I think we all agree he bought his seat. So he even had to bring money to drive. Plus he has not much clout, at least not on this forum. So does that make him overrated if we dis him and he has to buy his drive?
OTOH is MS worth every million he gets? I think so and apparantly Marlboro as well (who pays his salary). But what is the definition of overrated?
I would think the overrated is refering to to much hype and money in general. More than the driver is worth at least. RS is a good example I think. Look at the guy, he gets so much recognition but yet I bet if he was driving a Minardi instead of a Williams some of us would only know his name because of who is his brother is. (Which could still hold true even with the team he's with now.)
Although I disagree with Ralf being overrated, this is a good explanation of what I had in mind for this pole.
A good driver can make something out of a bad car. He, in most cases, can not make it win, but other drivers can see his skill.
I would like to see Juan as a over rated driver, but he actually has some skill. Too bad he want shut his mouth long enough to use it.
Ralph is too easy of a target. I am going to have to pick on David C. It is evident in the new qualifying style that it takes him awhile to acklamated to the car and track when everything is cold. He tends to fine in the race, probably more to the car them him. Put him a Minardi or Jordan, and probably would not have a job for too long.
IMO, the three R's (Ruebens, Ralf, and Raikkonen) are all overrated. At the beginning of every season the press likes to tout the "championship contenders", unless MS falters or the reliability of the Ferrari is horrible (both unlikely) he will be champ in '04.
I think actually that it is MS, then everyone else. Period. He needs a rival like Hakkanin was to add to the show of F1 and create drama, but none of these are truly rivals to him. The truth is he will continue to win for as long as the team stays intact whether RB is his teammate or not.
Kimi is too immature to challenge for the title this year. He is like Alonso, in a few years they will be two of the top guys, but now they will have to settle for a win here and there.
Ralf, while being good on certain days, is too inconsistent. Personally I also think he is a head case that will never be able to put a season together and challenge for the title.
Ruebens will always be Shumacher's handmaiden. He will never be champion. I don't really think he has what it takes to lead a team, especially Ferrari. He doesn't seem to qualify as well as MS.
Ralf and Sato I would say.
Alonso. People are claiming that he is the next MS. Fernando did well last year, noticeably better than his teammate. What was amazing about the performance? He had a good car and raced well with it. It wasn't *that* amazing.
I am just wondering who says that MS is overated??????? Lets see how many other drivers in the field have a world championship under there belt other than Michael???? At my last count there are 0.
Sato = WORST driver on the grid.
Forced on BAR by Honda as a condition for their continued engine supply, and a total a$$clown. Guaranteed to spin/go off/crash at least once per race.
There is no one else even close.
How about the fact that he won as the youngest driver ever in F1 history?
You say it yourself, he outdid his teammate who has been in F1 for many many years. Or how about the fact, that he won only in his second year as a driver (how many races did it take Rubens or Hakkinen for their first win, like 100)? Or the fact, that he comes from a country not really too much into car racing, more bike racing.
Basically I think you're dead wrong. Alonso will be a WC one day. I'd love to see him take over at Ferrari once Michael retires. He'll keep the momentum going.
I'll take a shot at this one.
In past years... you always had 2 or 3 superstars. Also you didn't have one Manufacture with the clearly dominante car.
MS is over rated because he has luck on his side. Dropped into F1 without a Prost or Sena or Mansal or all 3. Its been years since you could turn on the TV and wonder who might win. Use to be a toss up at every race.
Luck and timing are important to MS winning 6 in a row.
But if he was in a lesser car beating the Ferrari I would rate him higher.
Or if he was beating a better driver I would rate him higher.
Put the best driver in the best car and no one can touch him. Well...I rate him as lucky. But I expect him to win... he wins... so he is not beating expectations. Yet the world treats him like a God.
Its a stretch but I rate people as going above and beyond when they beat expectations. Its not MS fault that he doesn't have a better racer or a better car to chase and beat in an incredable finish. Just the luck and timing of history.
Same thing happens in all sports
In basketball when MJ was winning games and leading his team to championships just by sheer "WILL" and raw determination...the emotinal fun of being a fan in the 1980's was really special. They just might win in the last basket if they get lucky, it was so close.
However when the Lakers dominated basketball for a few years in the 1990's... they just rolled over all the other teams and it was boring. It wasn't even a close game. If it was the Lakers you knew who was going to win. Not the same level of satisfation watching those games.
Interesting observations. But if we look at the facts the Benetton was a mid pack team when MS came to them. He pretty much built that team around him. Then he switched to Ferrari, who was in the dumps at the time the cars handled bad and broke all of the time. What did MS do he pulled Ferrari up to become a championship winning team by building it around his talents.
This may be going out on a limb, but i feel that MS could Go to Jordan or Minardi and with in 2 years make the team a championship contender. Name any other driver that is on top of the world that would go to a team that is not a contender just for a personal challenge? Every other driver the only thing that would attract them to a lesser team is $$$$$. Then once they get there they would just whine and cry like JV did at BAR.
I feel that there is no other driver currently on the grid now that can pull this off other than MS.
We both agree Rob
MS is a great driver. He is also lucky that he is in F1 at a time when he is the best driver and he has had the best car(for the last few years). History is both kind to MS and cruel.
For MS to be a "GOD" in my eyes...
He would have to be the second or third best driver...but he pulls off an Alex Zanardi and still wins against all odds in the last few laps. Or he could go to a lesser team and take a junk Jag and work his ass off to beat a Ferrari.
JPM is in a position to be a sports GOD. If he could beat MS for the next 8 or 9 races he would blow everyones expectations.
MS is on top with no one close and dosen't have the opportunity that JPM has.
I disagree: MS did the "junk Jag" thing as you suggest at Benetton and at Ferrari. No need for the guy to do it a third time.
Also I disagree that MS had no competition: He put Senna under enough pressure to end that career and he had a heck of a competitor in Hakkinen.
You suggest Mansell as a competitor, well I used to be a long time Mansell fan, but he is more of a legend than a WC contender. MS would have beaten him on the track.
I agree on the JPM part: If he could beat MS, that would make him a god in many eyes. I doubt, that he will though.
I don't see how anyone could say Schumacher is over rated. I mean, besides winning 6 WC and with 72 wins under his belt what has the guy done??? He went to Ferrari while they were struggling and helped make them what they are today. Yes Senna and Prost would have been more competion for him but he is right in their league. I don't think either of them had anything on him in fact nothing against either of them but I think Schumacher is better then both of them.
I think Coulthard has been given a good car, (maybe not always great), and has managed to look consistently average. He still qualifies like an old woman.
Ralf ain't his big brother.
JPM is going to be successful..............after MS retires. I think the McLaren move will be better in the long run. I still feel he is overated until his actions match his opinion of his actions.
I don't rate drivers according to how much previous knowledge/practice they have. I don't rate drivers based on what they can do in the future. I don't rate MS and say, he's had 6 world championships already....he SHOULD get the next one. I think Alonso will become world champion if he went to a good team. I wouldn't put his chances over Kimi's, JPM's, Button's(gauged only from this years and last years performance), or Webber's.
for everyone that still feels that MS is over rated. Look back at Imola last year. His mother was on her death bed and he took pole position. then a few hours before the start his mother passed away. He still went out and raced he won.. That is a sign of a true champion. This is why he builds teams around him and why he is so dominant. I has the focus and the vision to achieve his goals and can block out distractions or tradegys.
Well, I am sitting here late Sunday morning looking at my poll's results so far. As I would have suspected, Coulthard has the most votes, and he certainly deserves them. I wouldn't have placed Ralf Scumacher as one of the highest vote getters, however his lack of consistency made it a possibility.
The biggest shocker, in my opinion, is Montoya. Unfortunately, I still believe most people judge him based on his personality and his great confidence in himself (okay, his ego). The guy won 2 CART championships (dominated), an INDY 500, and was immediately competitive in his rookie F1 season. He was Schumey's biggest challenger for the title last year. Put him in the same car as Schumey, and I wouldn't be picking Schumey as the winner every time, I would even dare call it even. I can't say that about any other driver on the grid.
Mark my words, Montoya will be the next dominating force in F1. If some of you feel it is more important to continue judging drivers based on other factors aside from their talent, then go ahead, maybe you should be reading "People" magazine instead of watching F1.
Let me get this straight: You don't rate them on the past, you don't rate them on the future. On what do you rate drivers then? I don't get it.
Kizdan, you can add a Monaco victory to JPM's list of accomplishments, one of the most difficult races to win. I agree with you for the most part. Just because JPM is IMHO a putz and a loudmouth doesn't mean he can't drive. Currently he is the only one capable stopping MS from his 7th title (not that Kimi or Alonso couldn't, but their cars probably can't just yet).
I disagree on the "dominating force" part. He is already older than Kimi or Alonso. I still the battle will be between those three after MS departs the scene.
Wow, that is the most wrong post I've read in a long time.
Lucky? You've gotta be kidding me!
Was he "lucky" to land is such a great Benneton car? Umm, no. He MADE that team.
Was he "lucky" to land at a Ferrari team that hadn't won anything since 1979?? Lots of VERY talented drivers tried to raise Ferrari for TWENTY YEARS. It wasn't a surprise at all to any of us that within a couple years, Ferrari suddenly became dominant, after MS signed with them.
If MS would have signed with McLaren instead, it would be McLaren with all the recent Championship. And Ferrari would be going on 25 years without a Championship.
2 or 3 superstars? Dominant car? Bogus arguments! If not for MS's clear superiority, there would be "2 or 3 superstars." Take MS out of the mix, and now you suddenly have "2 or 3 superstars."
Prost, Senna, Mansell? Umm, now you are talking about some "luck." Mansell never won anything except in a car that he landed in that was so dominant that even Mansell said "a monkey would win in this car." Mansell doesn't even belong in this discussion. Senna also only won in dominant cars that he did not have a big hand in developing. Senna could not step into a $100 million operation and turn it around like MS has proven he could do. Prost was good at set up, but didn't have the fire that MS or Senna had. MS combines the best of Prost and Senna, and then adds some more.
"If he were in a lesser car beating Ferrari . . . " Umm, Ferrari WAS the lesser car. It only isn't the lesser car BECAUSE of MS. You are confusing cause and effect.
Sorry, but saying MS is "lucky" is one of the most absurd things I've heard in sports talk in a LOOOOONG time.